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 | 老鱼战斑马(1) - RTI 篇 |
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【得胜】: 老鱼说两年前否认基督有被造的人性的侯军[Jun Hou,斑马]已经被美国
改革宗神学习院[Reformed Theology Institute, RTI]正式认证为违反改革宗和大
公教会教义的邪说。我估计很多人没有耐性看完他们之间的对话, 故提上来稍微整
理一下。这一篇总共有十三来回原文, 中文用dash line 隔开。
1. Ask Mr. Religion Posted: 02-07-2012 5:51 pm
。。。
I have read your paper and find it to be confusing where confusion isunnecessary.
This is the root issue you are having with oldfish, among others.There
is simply no need to distinguish "create" "uncreate"as you are tortuously
attempting to do. The church masters have spoken adequately about thesetopics
and you would do well to simply use their own words on the matter.
---------------------------------------------------------我读了您[斑马]的
文章，发现它是混乱的，而那些混乱是根本不需要的。这是您和老鱼以及其他人间
问题的根本原因。您根本也没必要拐弯抹角的拼命去割'造'和'非受造'。教会的大
师们在这个题目上说的够多了，您若是只简单的用他们在这个题目上的语言，就够
了。
2. Ask Mr. Religion Posted: 02-07-2012 8:42 pm
Yes,I am aware of the controversy. The plain truth of the matter is that
there is nothing wrong with saying Mary was the "God bearer", the theotokos.
However, translating the term to read "Mother of God" was and is problematic.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----是的，我注意到这个争论。很简单的一件事是，说马里亚是'生神者'，theotokos根
本是没有错误的一件事。然而，把这个词翻译成'神的母亲'，就会造成问题。
[斑马翻译成'神的母亲']
3. dr bray Posted: 02-09-2012 2:05 pm
HouJun,
I see some serious problems with your Christology[斑马] in your denial that
His humannature was created.
--------------------------------------------
我因您否认他的人性是被造的，而看见您的基督论有些严重的问题。
4. AskMr. Religion Posted: 02-09-2012 8:11 pm
I don't understand your continued hesitancy about the created aspect of
Christ'shumanity.
--------------------------------------------------------我不了解您为什么
一直抗拒基督人性被造的那面。
5. dr bray Posted: 02-10-2012 6:50 am
The only thing that is not created is the creator Himself...God. Sincethe
humanity of Jesus is not God, but necessity it was created. [35]
-------------------------------------------------------------------唯一不
是被造的乃是造物主自己。。。神。因为，耶稣的人性不是神，所以它必然是被造
的。
Eithersomething is eternal or it is created....Since those who deny Christ's
humanitywas created admit that His humanity is not eternal, they show themselves
tohave a great misunderstanding regarding one of the most basic distinctionsbetween
that which is created and the creator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------凡事
若不是永恒的，就是被造的。。。因为那否认基督人性是被造的，又承认他的人性
不是永远的，这些人表明他们自己对于被造之物和造物主间的不同，有非常大的误
解。
6. dr bray Posted: 02-10-2012 2:06 pm
HouJun,
I will simply expand you quote of Pink to include the rest of his thought
thatyou quoted from...
-----------------------------------------------------------若我是您，我会
把宾克下面这句话也包括在您引用他的话里面。。。。
Quote:
The humanity of Christ was, under the immediate agency of the Holy Spirit,supernaturally
"conceived" (Isa. 7:14) of the virgin. It was"prepared" of God (Heb. 10:5);
yet "made of a woman" (Gal.4:4.).
---------------------------------------------------------------基督的人性
乃是在圣灵介入时立刻，以超自然的方式'成孕'（以赛亚7：14）在童女里面。它乃
是为神所'预备'（希10：5）；却也是'从女人所造'（加4：4）。
Noticethat Pink has no qualms using the word "made" in reference to thehuman
nature of Jesus. The terms "made" and "created" aresynonymous terms therefore
Pink is not in agreement with you but rather with meas this fuller quotation
shows.
-----------------------------------------------------------------请注意，
宾克在描述耶稣的人性的时候，并不会顾忌使用'造'这个子'被造（made）'和'被造
（created）'这个字是同义的，故此宾克不会同意您您，而是以那全篇的话，与我
站在同一个立场。
7. Presbyterian Deacon Posted: 02-10-2012 4:53 pm
Mr Hou:
Holdon! Don't get too carried away here. I believe in the "created humannature"
of Christ. And A.W.Pink did also. The point of the article Iposted by Pink
is exactly that! [36]
--------------------------------------------等等！别转移话题。我相信基督
'被造的人性'。宾克也是。我贴的宾克的帖子的重点就是那样。
。。。
Pink's use of the word "Created" here is not to deny ourSavior's likeness
and identification with our "created human nature,"but rather to affirm
it!Christ'shuman nature was not some "special act of creation" that is some
howdifferent from our created humanity! [37]
-------------------------------------------------宾克在这里用了"被造（created）
"这个词，并不是为了否认救主与我们"被造的人性"的相同，而是要确认它！基督的
人性并不是某种的"特别的创造"，而与我们被造的人性有任何的不同！
This is Pink's point: Christ was born from "our created flesh" as the HolySpirit
superintended the work of fasioning his body in the womb of Mary! ChristFULLY
shares in the likeness of OUR created flesh. That "His humanity isbegotten
and born" means that Christ is "completely human" andfully shares in our
created humanity. It is by his "sinless flesh"and his perfect human life
(as in our place) and obedience to God, His fulfillingof the Covenant of
Works on our behalf that our Savior's substitutionary deathfinds purchase!
The uniqueness of Chris'st human nature, is in the Virgin conception!!!
---------------------------------以下乃是宾克的重点：基督是从"我们被造的
肉身"被生，而圣灵则以一种超越的方式介入，在童女腹中塑造了他的身体。"他的
人性被生"的意思就是基督是"完全的人"和完全有份于我们被造的人性。这是借由他
"无罪的肉身"和他完全的为人生活（在我们的地位上）以及对神的顺服，他为了我
们满足了工作之约，好叫我们救主的替死能够把我们买回来！基督人性的独特性乃
是在童女的成孕之中！！！
。。。
8. Mr.Hou:
------------------侯先生：
You misunderstand A.W.Pink and also my meaning when you go on to state:
[38]
---------------------------------------------您在说下面这段话的时候，误解
了宾克和我的意思：。。。
Do you not see how you have truncated both my words, and those of A. W.Pink
to give a meaning never intended? Christ is the God-man. Full Deity andfull
humanity in one person...such is the ONLY suitable substitute for ourfallen
race![39]
-----------------------------您难道没有看见您断章取义了我和宾克的话，并赋予了完全
不同的意思？基督是神-人。完全的神性和完全的人性在一个位格里面。。。这乃是
唯一能够代替我们堕落族类的那位。
9. PresbyterianDeacon Posted: 02-10-2012 7:30 pm
TheIncarnation. From eternity, God the Son was a Person who possessed the
Divinenature (the nature of God). Upon His incarnation He took upon Himself
a humannature which was divinely created of Mary's substance. The wordIncarnarnation
speaks of the initial action and following condition ofassunming a human
nature and being embodied in flesh. The incarnation of Godthe Son was his
taking upon Himself a complete sinless human nature. Surely thesecond person
of the Godhead is active in this, but Scripture affirms that theIncarnation
is not alone the work of the Son. The Incarnation of Christ is a"Trinitarian
act" whereby the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit areactive.
--------------------------------------------道成肉身。从永恒，神子就是拥
有神性（神的性情）的一个位格。在他的道成肉身，他为自己取了一个从马里亚的
本质，由神所造的人性。道成肉身讲的是起初的动作和接下来取了人性并被肉身包
裹的情况。神儿子的道成肉身乃是他为自己取了一个完全无罪的人性。当然，神格
的第二个位格是主动的，但是圣经也坚称道成肉身并不是子单独的工作。基督的道
成肉身乃是"三位一体的工作（Trinitarian act）"，父、子、圣灵都是主动的。
Ordinarily,conception takes place when a male sperm unites with a female
ovum. The uniquefeature of Christ's birth (His Incarnation) is that it was
a Virgin birth. Hisconception was not the result of human generation. Mary
did not conceive by theagencyof man (Matt 1:18, 25, Luke1:34-35). Mary
concieved by the agency of God the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:20; Luke1:35). Jesus
conception was uniquely and radically different from all others. Itwas wholly
of the Holy Spirit who created from Mary's substance a completehuman nature
(body and soul).
---------一般的情况下，男性的精子和女性的卵子结合才会成孕。基督出生（他的道成肉身）
的独特处乃是在于童女生子。他的成孕并不是人类出生的结果。马里亚并没用接触
男子（马太1：18，25；路加1：34-35）。马里亚乃是借由神的圣灵而成孕（马太1：
20；路加1：35）。耶稣的成孕是独奕无恶，并与众人完全不同。它乃完全是圣灵从
马里亚的素质创造出完整的人性（身体和灵魂）。
TheDivine and human natures are united in ONE Person. The Lord Jesus is
not twopersons, (one human and the other divine), but He is one Self. In
HisIncarnation, God the Son did not assume a human person, but a human nature,
divinely made of Mary's substance (Luke 1:35) through the direct agency
of theHoly Spirit. Further, we read the passage in Hebrews (9:5-7) of the
Sontestifying that "a body have Youprepared for me...I come to do your
will O God....'
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
神性和人性都在一个位格里面。主不是两个位格（一个人的，一个神的），然而
他自己乃是一位。在他的道成肉身里面，神的儿子并没有取了人的位格，而是人性，
从神借由圣灵直接的介入，从马里亚的素质（路加1：35）所造。除此以外，我们也
在希伯来书（9：5-7）里面读到子建造"您为我预备了身体。。。我用来遵行您的旨
意，哦神。。。。"
Thoughother passages could be cited, these should (at least for now) suffice
to showthat the Incarnation is a Trinitarian work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
我也也能够从（最起码到目前为止）其他被引用的经文，看三位一体在道成肉身中
的工作。
10. You state: 您宣称
Quote:
Mypoint is the humanity of Jesus Christ is not created by totally "the otherone"
and by other's will, but is created by HIMSELF and by his ownwill.Because
Jesus is God, and God does everything by his own will. That is theFather
"prepared"/"created" the flesh/humanity through theSon!
"Through him all things were made;without him nothing was made that has
been made."(John1:3)
I find your point (and your paper as provided by oldfish earlier in this
thread) to be circuitous and not very well reasoned and your attempts at
explication have done little to further your cause.
---------------------------------------------------------我发觉您的论点
（老鱼之前对您问的翻译）乃是一直在绕圈圈，并没用清楚的论述，您所做的介绍
都无法支持您的理由。
11. PresbyterianDeacon Posted:02-10-2012 8:55 pm
Here is the flaw in your syllogism. Christ does NOT become a"created human
personhood." There is no 'sufficient and necessarycondition' to assert that
there is a created "personhood" withrespect to Christ. FromEternity the
Second Person of the Godhead is divine. The word"Nature" and the word "Person"
are NOT interchangeable intheology. There are two NATURES (human and divine)
which are inseperably unitedin the one PERSON. These natures are are not
mingled or confounded. Our Lord's incarnation does NOT affect His Divinenature
in any way, for there is nointeraction or exchange between the two natures.
The properties of the onenature never become the properties of the other.
They are not mixed or combinedso as to lose their distinctiveness or to
form a third nature. On the otherhand, these natures do not function independently
of Him like seperate persons.They continuously and and simultaneously communicate
their powers and qualitiesto Him with out conflict.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
这就是您的三段论的破洞。基督并没有成为"一个被造的人类位格"。根本没
有"足够和需要的条件"来断言在基督那方面有个被造的"人类位格"。从永恒，神格
的第二位格就是神。"性质"和"位格"这两个词在神学中是不能互通的。在一个位格
中有两个性质（人的和神的）以一种不可分割的方式联合在一起。这些性质并不会
调和或改变。我们主的道成肉身并不会影响他的神性，因为在两性之间完全没有任
何的互动或教会。一个性质的属性绝对不会成为另一个性质的属性。它们不会混合
或融合，失去其分别，或产生第三性。在另一方面，这些本质并不会独立于他而运
作，就好像另一个位格一样。它们继续并同时，以毫不冲突的方式，将它们的能力
和质量彼此相通。
Christ'sPERSON is eternally Divine. In time, He took upon Himself the nature
of man. Inhis excellent work, Outlines of Theology (A.A.Hodge) writes:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
基督的位格永远是神的位格。在时间中，他为自己取了人性。在他完美的工作中，
AA Hodge写到：
Quote:
HisDivine nature being eternal and immutable, and of course incapable of
addition,remained essentially unchanged by this union. The whole immutable
divineessence continued to subsist as the eternal Personal Word, now embracing
aperfect human nature in the unity of His Person, and as the organ of His
will.Yet thereby is the relation of the divine nature changed to the whole
creation,since he has become Emmanuel, "God with us," "God manifest inthe
flesh."
----------------------------------------------------------------他的神学
是永恒不可改变的，当然也不可能附加任何的东西进去，而是借由这个联合，从本
质上而言是不会改变的。整个不可改变的神圣本质乃是以永恒，有位格的道的方式
存在，如今在他的位格中拥抱了一个完美的人性，并作为他意志的源头。故此，神
性的对于整个受造的关系改变了，因为他成为以马内利，"神与我们同在"，"神在肉
身显现"。
12. FurtherHodge writes: Hodge进一步写下：
Quote:
TheHuman nature, being perfect after its kind, began to exist in union with
thedivine nature and as one constituent part of the divine Person, and as
such itever continues unmixed and essentially unchanged human nature.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------人
性，在它的种类中是完美的，在与神性的联合中开始其存在，并成为神格的一个构
成部分，然而它仍是永远不混合，其人性素质也不会改变。
NOTE: Hodge (and all true reformed) teachingon this does not allow that
the created human nature of Christ should ever, inany way, over power or
replace the divine nature, and most certainly does NOT CHANGE the DIVINE
PERSON.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
注：Hodge(以及所有真正的改革宗)这样教导，并不容许基
督被造的人性会以任何的方式压过或替代其神性，也肯定不会改变其神格。
13. drbray Posted: 02-11-2012 10:31 am
Hou Jun,
AsSterling points out, you are confusing the human nature of Christ with
theperson of Christ.
---------------------------------------------------如同Sterling指出的，您
混乱了基督的人性和基督的位格。
小结:
我们看见美国改革宗的基督论，跟侯军-唐崇荣的基督论完全是背道而驰的。
- 未完待续
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