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 | 老魚戰斑馬(1) - RTI 篇 |
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【得勝】: 老魚說兩年前否認基督有被造的人性的侯軍[Jun Hou,斑馬]已經被美國
改革宗神學習院[Reformed Theology Institute, RTI]正式認證為違反改革宗和大
公教會教義的邪說。我估計很多人沒有耐性看完他們之間的對話, 故提上來稍微整
理一下。這一篇總共有十三來回原文, 中文用dash line 隔開。
1. Ask Mr. Religion Posted: 02-07-2012 5:51 pm
。。。
I have read your paper and find it to be confusing where confusion isunnecessary.
This is the root issue you are having with oldfish, among others.There
is simply no need to distinguish "create" "uncreate"as you are tortuously
attempting to do. The church masters have spoken adequately about thesetopics
and you would do well to simply use their own words on the matter.
---------------------------------------------------------我讀了您[斑馬]的
文章，發現它是混亂的，而那些混亂是根本不需要的。這是您和老魚以及其他人間
問題的根本原因。您根本也沒必要拐彎抹角的拼命去割'造'和'非受造'。教會的大
師們在這個題目上說的夠多了，您若是只簡單的用他們在這個題目上的語言，就夠
了。
2. Ask Mr. Religion Posted: 02-07-2012 8:42 pm
Yes,I am aware of the controversy. The plain truth of the matter is that
there is nothing wrong with saying Mary was the "God bearer", the theotokos.
However, translating the term to read "Mother of God" was and is problematic.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----是的，我注意到這個爭論。很簡單的一件事是，說馬里亞是'生神者'，theotokos根
本是沒有錯誤的一件事。然而，把這個詞翻譯成'神的母親'，就會造成問題。
[斑馬翻譯成'神的母親']
3. dr bray Posted: 02-09-2012 2:05 pm
HouJun,
I see some serious problems with your Christology[斑馬] in your denial that
His humannature was created.
--------------------------------------------
我因您否認他的人性是被造的，而看見您的基督論有些嚴重的問題。
4. AskMr. Religion Posted: 02-09-2012 8:11 pm
I don't understand your continued hesitancy about the created aspect of
Christ'shumanity.
--------------------------------------------------------我不了解您為什麼
一直抗拒基督人性被造的那面。
5. dr bray Posted: 02-10-2012 6:50 am
The only thing that is not created is the creator Himself...God. Sincethe
humanity of Jesus is not God, but necessity it was created. [35]
-------------------------------------------------------------------唯一不
是被造的乃是造物主自己。。。神。因為，耶穌的人性不是神，所以它必然是被造
的。
Eithersomething is eternal or it is created....Since those who deny Christ's
humanitywas created admit that His humanity is not eternal, they show themselves
tohave a great misunderstanding regarding one of the most basic distinctionsbetween
that which is created and the creator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------凡事
若不是永恆的，就是被造的。。。因為那否認基督人性是被造的，又承認他的人性
不是永遠的，這些人表明他們自己對於被造之物和造物主間的不同，有非常大的誤
解。
6. dr bray Posted: 02-10-2012 2:06 pm
HouJun,
I will simply expand you quote of Pink to include the rest of his thought
thatyou quoted from...
-----------------------------------------------------------若我是您，我會
把賓克下面這句話也包括在您引用他的話裡面。。。。
Quote:
The humanity of Christ was, under the immediate agency of the Holy Spirit,supernaturally
"conceived" (Isa. 7:14) of the virgin. It was"prepared" of God (Heb. 10:5);
yet "made of a woman" (Gal.4:4.).
---------------------------------------------------------------基督的人性
乃是在聖靈介入時立刻，以超自然的方式'成孕'（以賽亞7：14）在童女裡面。它乃
是為神所'預備'（希10：5）；卻也是'從女人所造'（加4：4）。
Noticethat Pink has no qualms using the word "made" in reference to thehuman
nature of Jesus. The terms "made" and "created" aresynonymous terms therefore
Pink is not in agreement with you but rather with meas this fuller quotation
shows.
-----------------------------------------------------------------請注意，
賓克在描述耶穌的人性的時候，並不會顧忌使用'造'這個子'被造（made）'和'被造
（created）'這個字是同義的，故此賓克不會同意您您，而是以那全篇的話，與我
站在同一個立場。
7. Presbyterian Deacon Posted: 02-10-2012 4:53 pm
Mr Hou:
Holdon! Don't get too carried away here. I believe in the "created humannature"
of Christ. And A.W.Pink did also. The point of the article Iposted by Pink
is exactly that! [36]
--------------------------------------------等等！別轉移話題。我相信基督
'被造的人性'。賓克也是。我貼的賓克的帖子的重點就是那樣。
。。。
Pink's use of the word "Created" here is not to deny ourSavior's likeness
and identification with our "created human nature,"but rather to affirm
it!Christ'shuman nature was not some "special act of creation" that is some
howdifferent from our created humanity! [37]
-------------------------------------------------賓克在這裡用了"被造（created）
"這個詞，並不是為了否認救主與我們"被造的人性"的相同，而是要確認它！基督的
人性並不是某種的"特別的創造"，而與我們被造的人性有任何的不同！
This is Pink's point: Christ was born from "our created flesh" as the HolySpirit
superintended the work of fasioning his body in the womb of Mary! ChristFULLY
shares in the likeness of OUR created flesh. That "His humanity isbegotten
and born" means that Christ is "completely human" andfully shares in our
created humanity. It is by his "sinless flesh"and his perfect human life
(as in our place) and obedience to God, His fulfillingof the Covenant of
Works on our behalf that our Savior's substitutionary deathfinds purchase!
The uniqueness of Chris'st human nature, is in the Virgin conception!!!
---------------------------------以下乃是賓克的重點：基督是從"我們被造的
肉身"被生，而聖靈則以一種超越的方式介入，在童女腹中塑造了他的身體。"他的
人性被生"的意思就是基督是"完全的人"和完全有份於我們被造的人性。這是藉由他
"無罪的肉身"和他完全的為人生活（在我們的地位上）以及對神的順服，他為了我
們滿足了工作之約，好叫我們救主的替死能夠把我們買回來！基督人性的獨特性乃
是在童女的成孕之中！！！
。。。
8. Mr.Hou:
------------------侯先生：
You misunderstand A.W.Pink and also my meaning when you go on to state:
[38]
---------------------------------------------您在說下面這段話的時候，誤解
了賓克和我的意思：。。。
Do you not see how you have truncated both my words, and those of A. W.Pink
to give a meaning never intended? Christ is the God-man. Full Deity andfull
humanity in one person...such is the ONLY suitable substitute for ourfallen
race![39]
-----------------------------您難道沒有看見您斷章取義了我和賓克的話，並賦予了完全
不同的意思？基督是神-人。完全的神性和完全的人性在一個位格裡面。。。這乃是
唯一能夠代替我們墮落族類的那位。
9. PresbyterianDeacon Posted: 02-10-2012 7:30 pm
TheIncarnation. From eternity, God the Son was a Person who possessed the
Divinenature (the nature of God). Upon His incarnation He took upon Himself
a humannature which was divinely created of Mary's substance. The wordIncarnarnation
speaks of the initial action and following condition ofassunming a human
nature and being embodied in flesh. The incarnation of Godthe Son was his
taking upon Himself a complete sinless human nature. Surely thesecond person
of the Godhead is active in this, but Scripture affirms that theIncarnation
is not alone the work of the Son. The Incarnation of Christ is a"Trinitarian
act" whereby the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit areactive.
--------------------------------------------道成肉身。從永恆，神子就是擁
有神性（神的性情）的一個位格。在他的道成肉身，他為自己取了一個從馬里亞的
本質，由神所造的人性。道成肉身講的是起初的動作和接下來取了人性並被肉身包
裹的情況。神兒子的道成肉身乃是他為自己取了一個完全無罪的人性。當然，神格
的第二個位格是主動的，但是聖經也堅稱道成肉身並不是子單獨的工作。基督的道
成肉身乃是"三位一體的工作（Trinitarian act）"，父、子、聖靈都是主動的。
Ordinarily,conception takes place when a male sperm unites with a female
ovum. The uniquefeature of Christ's birth (His Incarnation) is that it was
a Virgin birth. Hisconception was not the result of human generation. Mary
did not conceive by theagencyof man (Matt 1:18, 25, Luke1:34-35). Mary
concieved by the agency of God the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:20; Luke1:35). Jesus
conception was uniquely and radically different from all others. Itwas wholly
of the Holy Spirit who created from Mary's substance a completehuman nature
(body and soul).
---------一般的情況下，男性的精子和女性的卵子結合才會成孕。基督出生（他的道成肉身）
的獨特處乃是在於童女生子。他的成孕並不是人類出生的結果。馬里亞並沒用接觸
男子（馬太1：18，25；路加1：34-35）。馬里亞乃是藉由神的聖靈而成孕（馬太1：
20；路加1：35）。耶穌的成孕是獨奕無惡，並與眾人完全不同。它乃完全是聖靈從
馬里亞的素質創造出完整的人性（身體和靈魂）。
TheDivine and human natures are united in ONE Person. The Lord Jesus is
not twopersons, (one human and the other divine), but He is one Self. In
HisIncarnation, God the Son did not assume a human person, but a human nature,
divinely made of Mary's substance (Luke 1:35) through the direct agency
of theHoly Spirit. Further, we read the passage in Hebrews (9:5-7) of the
Sontestifying that "a body have Youprepared for me...I come to do your
will O God....'
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
神性和人性都在一個位格裡面。主不是兩個位格（一個人的，一個神的），然而
他自己乃是一位。在他的道成肉身裡面，神的兒子並沒有取了人的位格，而是人性，
從神藉由聖靈直接的介入，從馬里亞的素質（路加1：35）所造。除此以外，我們也
在希伯來書（9：5-7）裡面讀到子建造"您為我預備了身體。。。我用來遵行您的旨
意，哦神。。。。"
Thoughother passages could be cited, these should (at least for now) suffice
to showthat the Incarnation is a Trinitarian work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
我也也能夠從（最起碼到目前為止）其他被引用的經文，看三位一體在道成肉身中
的工作。
10. You state: 您宣稱
Quote:
Mypoint is the humanity of Jesus Christ is not created by totally "the otherone"
and by other's will, but is created by HIMSELF and by his ownwill.Because
Jesus is God, and God does everything by his own will. That is theFather
"prepared"/"created" the flesh/humanity through theSon!
"Through him all things were made;without him nothing was made that has
been made."(John1:3)
I find your point (and your paper as provided by oldfish earlier in this
thread) to be circuitous and not very well reasoned and your attempts at
explication have done little to further your cause.
---------------------------------------------------------我發覺您的論點
（老魚之前對您問的翻譯）乃是一直在繞圈圈，並沒用清楚的論述，您所做的介紹
都無法支持您的理由。
11. PresbyterianDeacon Posted:02-10-2012 8:55 pm
Here is the flaw in your syllogism. Christ does NOT become a"created human
personhood." There is no 'sufficient and necessarycondition' to assert that
there is a created "personhood" withrespect to Christ. FromEternity the
Second Person of the Godhead is divine. The word"Nature" and the word "Person"
are NOT interchangeable intheology. There are two NATURES (human and divine)
which are inseperably unitedin the one PERSON. These natures are are not
mingled or confounded. Our Lord's incarnation does NOT affect His Divinenature
in any way, for there is nointeraction or exchange between the two natures.
The properties of the onenature never become the properties of the other.
They are not mixed or combinedso as to lose their distinctiveness or to
form a third nature. On the otherhand, these natures do not function independently
of Him like seperate persons.They continuously and and simultaneously communicate
their powers and qualitiesto Him with out conflict.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
這就是您的三段論的破洞。基督並沒有成為"一個被造的人類位格"。根本沒
有"足夠和需要的條件"來斷言在基督那方面有個被造的"人類位格"。從永恆，神格
的第二位格就是神。"性質"和"位格"這兩個詞在神學中是不能互通的。在一個位格
中有兩個性質（人的和神的）以一種不可分割的方式聯合在一起。這些性質並不會
調和或改變。我們主的道成肉身並不會影響他的神性，因為在兩性之間完全沒有任
何的互動或教會。一個性質的屬性絕對不會成為另一個性質的屬性。它們不會混合
或融合，失去其分別，或產生第三性。在另一方面，這些本質並不會獨立於他而運
作，就好像另一個位格一樣。它們繼續並同時，以毫不衝突的方式，將它們的能力
和質量彼此相通。
Christ'sPERSON is eternally Divine. In time, He took upon Himself the nature
of man. Inhis excellent work, Outlines of Theology (A.A.Hodge) writes:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
基督的位格永遠是神的位格。在時間中，他為自己取了人性。在他完美的工作中，
AA Hodge寫到：
Quote:
HisDivine nature being eternal and immutable, and of course incapable of
addition,remained essentially unchanged by this union. The whole immutable
divineessence continued to subsist as the eternal Personal Word, now embracing
aperfect human nature in the unity of His Person, and as the organ of His
will.Yet thereby is the relation of the divine nature changed to the whole
creation,since he has become Emmanuel, "God with us," "God manifest inthe
flesh."
----------------------------------------------------------------他的神學
是永恆不可改變的，當然也不可能附加任何的東西進去，而是藉由這個聯合，從本
質上而言是不會改變的。整個不可改變的神聖本質乃是以永恆，有位格的道的方式
存在，如今在他的位格中擁抱了一個完美的人性，並作為他意志的源頭。故此，神
性的對於整個受造的關係改變了，因為他成為以馬內利，"神與我們同在"，"神在肉
身顯現"。
12. FurtherHodge writes: Hodge進一步寫下：
Quote:
TheHuman nature, being perfect after its kind, began to exist in union with
thedivine nature and as one constituent part of the divine Person, and as
such itever continues unmixed and essentially unchanged human nature.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------人
性，在它的種類中是完美的，在與神性的聯合中開始其存在，並成為神格的一個構
成部分，然而它仍是永遠不混合，其人性素質也不會改變。
NOTE: Hodge (and all true reformed) teachingon this does not allow that
the created human nature of Christ should ever, inany way, over power or
replace the divine nature, and most certainly does NOT CHANGE the DIVINE
PERSON.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
註：Hodge(以及所有真正的改革宗)這樣教導，並不容許基
督被造的人性會以任何的方式壓過或替代其神性，也肯定不會改變其神格。
13. drbray Posted: 02-11-2012 10:31 am
Hou Jun,
AsSterling points out, you are confusing the human nature of Christ with
theperson of Christ.
---------------------------------------------------如同Sterling指出的，您
混亂了基督的人性和基督的位格。
小結:
我們看見美國改革宗的基督論，跟侯軍-唐崇榮的基督論完全是背道而馳的。
- 未完待續
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