第三个回帖

下面这个是原文截图，Klink 引用Schlatter的解释说,道成肉身以后发生了什么呢？没有变化发生。没有低化质变，没有因为另一个而改变道的形态，没有因为道进入肉身而发生分解，也没有使二者混合的发展，只有完全的联合。而在这个联合中没有从神的一方取出任何东西，也没有任何东西加给被造的一方。这就是约翰在前言部分所描述的悖论。（红字对应sarx，译文是我的尝试，仅供参考）

根据这段译文，同意弟兄的解释，肉身不等于位格，因为位格等于神和人的联合（我觉得人神联合这个词形容主耶稣的位格最好），但是，Sarx可以代表全人，而且是道成了人，因为他也是可见的耶稣基督，正如我们常说的他是道成肉身的神，这也正是圣经的最高启示关键内容，因为神的整个救赎没有这位道成的人无法完成。这还真是悖论，在一定意义上只可意会不可言传。所以加深理解神的启示、神的话语、神的作工永远没有止境。

我们可以看到说法的不同，但是粗略的说，神成人，就是道成肉身。这也是Klink的解经结果。我还专门去看了希腊词典，同一个希腊词下确实有几十个不同的意思，但是英文和Klink都选择了became或者caming into，而不是made，也不是created，可见区别还是很明显和重大的。我也专门读了Klink的原文，他特别强调解这句经文的时候要注意三个重大问题。第一个就是神的属性没有任何转化，虽然神已经变成人。而且神人在耶稣基督位格里是不可分的。另外我注意到的就是，Klink似乎并没有说耶稣基督是创造的高峰，而是说他的工作是创造的高峰，比如福音，在这个上下文中，福音是神的大能是神的工作，就是救赎之工的一部分。我觉得说他的工作是创造的高峰没有问题，说他这个位格，就问题很大。

题外话的一点思考，就是圣经使用的古希腊文，它固然是新约圣经使用的主要语言，但它也是古希腊哲学的语言，而古希腊哲学充满了人造神，我们在使用于我们的独一真神信仰的时候使用几十种意思中的哪一种，就要非常小心，比如耶稣的道成肉身，用come into being, became 都没有问题；可是用made，created，或者类似字汇就有问题。

看书发觉视力衰退的厉害，更加知道弟兄辛苦。以上分享供兄弟参考。    

这个弟兄还是要认真对待，厘清被造和造物主的关系。我总觉的说耶稣造物质世界最高峰是造了自己，是一个很不合常理的说法，而且如果他造了自己的人性，这个人性就不符合迦克顿信经的四面墙，因为你自己说的他的身体是道成肉身公元元年才被造，而且有共识二元不可分离，那么之前如何吻合他的人神二性永不分离？还有人性和人的身体可以分离而独立存在吗？如此一来，基督过去现在将来永远不变的圣经申述如何理解？

我觉得这些绝不是小问题，那些语法的分析非但不绝对，反而要受这些原则管辖，至少要相互参照避免矛盾。

弟兄引用的那些解经和弟兄的解释，我认为是一个思考的方向；而不是只有一个方向，尤其是考虑整本圣经和信经。还有耶稣创造自己的肉身而且是最高峰创造，这个论点有一定的合理性，但是缺乏明显的经文根据。如果这是一个重大真理，肯定不会靠一个或者几个动词的用法选择来确定。我个人倾向于神的创造就是六天完成，主耶稣的身体和人性没有离开那个六天范畴，而且更重大的是，神造人是按照自己的样式和形像，耶稣只是取了人的形像，没有必要另外造。而且通过童女感孕，明确启示了和其他人一样的身体来源，这个也是四大信经里认定的。所以这些明确的圣经和信经内容，都和弟兄引用的那几个动词有不吻合之处，需要继续让他们一致。弟兄以为如何？

in depth: “Came/Made/Became” (ἐγένετο/γίνομαι)

The magnificent language and imagery of the prologue as well as its seemingly disjointed nature often detract the reader from grasping the prologue’s collective significance. What holds the prologue together and directs its message is the carefully crafted use of one variously translated Greek verb (γίνομαι). The verb is quite flexible in meaning, which is why it appears in so many different forms in translation, making it undetectable to the English reader: “made,” “came,” “become/became,” the “unique” Son. Since its meaning contains “numerous nuances relating to being and manner of being,” it serves as an excellent medium to express the coming and arrival of the incarnate Word of God. This single Greek verb occurs in every section of the prologue, forming what is like a highway upon which the message and meaning of the prologue travels.

The significance of the verb, however, is not merely its repeated occurrence but its progressive development throughout the prologue. Beginning in v. 3, the verb is used emphatically three times to describe Jesus as the one through whom all things “came” (ἐγένετο) into being, with different verbal tenses expressing both the completed act of creation (aorist) and its continuing effects (perfect). The idea of “creation” behind the use of the verb in v. 3 depicts Jesus as central to all the creativity of God.

John 1:3,

万物是借着他造的。凡被造的，没有一样不是借着他造的。

NRSV: All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being

πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.^a ὃ γέγονεν

In v. 6 the verb is used again, though this time to describe the arrival of John (the Baptist), who “came” (ἐγένετο) beneath the sending mission of God. While there is an intended contrast between John (witness) and Jesus (the one witnessed to), the explicit use of the word in v. 6 implies that a related force is also at work here. John would not have used the same verb four times in six verses without allowing them to work in a coordinated manner. The related force influencing v. 6 is that behind the witness of John is the God of creation (v. 3), who is working in creation. John could have used the imperfect “was” (ἦν), which would have described John from the inside. Instead John signals to the reader that even the ministry of the Baptist is subsumed under the creative working of God.

John 1:6

有一个人，是从神那里差来的，名叫约翰。

NRSV There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος,^c ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης

After being used again in v. 10 in a manner similar to v. 3, helping to carry forward the developing force of the verb, the term is used for a sixth time in v. 12 to describe the “creative” force of God when those who believe “become” (γενέσθαι) children of God. This transformation can only be described (with Paul) as a new creation, connecting this use of the verb with its emphatic use in v. 3 regarding the creation of the world.

John 1:10

他在世界，世界也是借着他造的，世界却不认识他。

NRSV He was in the world, and the world  came into being through him,; yet the world did not know him.

ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν, καὶ ὁ κόσμος διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω.

The seventh (a significant number) occurrence of the verb occurs in v. 14 when John describes how the Word “became” (ἐγένετο) flesh. This is the ultimate manifestation of God’s “creative” activity. The God who had been working from the outside was now on the inside; the Creator is now with his creation. In v. 14 Jesus is also described with a new title that is taken from the word’s root: “the unique Son” (μονογενής; repeated in v. 18). By means of this eighth use Jesus has become the pinnacle of creation, the center of human history and all created things. The ninth use of the verb in v. 15 （约翰为他作见证，喊着说，这就是我曾说，那在我以后来的，反成了在我以前的。因他本来在我以前。）reinforces Jesus’s place in history and the plan of God, making clear that Jesus “existed” not only before the time of the Baptist but before the creation of the world.

John 1:14

道成了肉身住在我们中间，充充满满的有恩典有真理。我们也见过他的荣光，正是父独生子的荣光。

ESV And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.

μονογενοῦς is from μόνος (G3441) and γίνομαι (G1096)

独生子的意思是：耶稣came into being（γίνομαι ）的方式是独特的（μόνος），因为耶稣的人性是祂自己造的。

Finally, the verb is used for a tenth (another significant number) time in v. 17 to describe how the gospel of Jesus Christ is the ultimate “creative” act of God: the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth “came” (ἐγένετο) through Jesus Christ. The same power that God used to create the world (see v. 3) is also at work in the person and ministerial work of Jesus Christ. The children of God were born out of the same power that was used to create the world. With one verb the prologue of John describes with progressive precision the important characters, overall plot, and unseen forces at work in the story; something entirely missed in the English translation.

John 1:17

律法本是借着摩西传的，恩典和真理，都是由耶稣基督来的。

ESV：For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

The above discussion not only gives evidence of a unified prologue (1:1–18) but also gives warrant for using the cosmological vision cast by the prologue to interpret and understand the historical events described by the remainder of the Gospel. Even more, the verb makes several other meaning-significant appearances through the Gospel. Direct examples include 4:14; 5:6, 9; 6:19; and 8:58. Indirect examples include 3:9; 6:25; 9:27, 39; and 19:36. While we will not explore each of those examples in depth, the same “creative” and transformative vision of the work of God through Jesus Christ crafted by the prologue should, based upon the context, be equally applied to those occurrences.^[1]

^[1] Klink, E. W., III. (2016). John. (C. E. Arnold, Ed.) (pp. 114–116). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.