| | 不管你对伊朗总统 Ahmadinejad 有什么看法，看了这个采访以后(taped on 9/22/2010)，你恐怕都不得不承认： 这家伙 够聪明！够厉害！也许大名嘴采访之前根本没有做什么功课(他曾经说过他在采访很多名人之前并不做研究)，反正 Ahmadinejad made Larry King run for his money in this interview! 就连名嘴自己在采访后也不得不承认(in part 4/4)，这个采访对象不一般！！ 虽然录像的声音效果不错，为了便于大家更好的理解对话内容，特将从文学城转来的中英文对照贴在这里(原文链接在此：http://news.wenxuecity.com/messages/201009/news-gb2312-1175131.html)
(Part I)
拉里-金（后简称为金）：总统先生，感谢你回到拉里-金实况。你喜欢来美国吗？
KING: Mr. President, thank you for coming back to LARRY KING LIVE. Do you like coming to America?
内贾德（后简称为内，通过翻译）：奉至仁至慈真主之名，我想向你的听众、你、你的同事问好。请求万能的真主给所有人和所有国家带来健康、繁荣、成功。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful, I’’d like to say hello to your audience, to you and your colleagues, and ask Almighty God to bring health, prosperity and success to all people and nations and countries。 我对前往世界各地和人们会面很感兴趣。联合国是一个就如何管理国际事务进行国际想法交流的一个重要论坛。很自然，像我这样的人应当积极参与它的工作。 I am interested in traveling to all parts of the world to meet with people. The United Nations is an important forum for the exchange of international ideas on how to run international affairs and naturally people like myself should be actively involved in its work。
金：让我们来谈一些时事议题。就在几天前，你释放了一名美国徒步者，但仍有两名徒步者被伊朗关押。他们要被关押多长时间？ KING: Let’’s get to some current issues. A few days ago, you released the American hiker, but there is still two captives in Iran. How long will they be detained?
内：哦，他们越过了我们的边境，侵犯了我们的边境，一位法官将处理他们的案件。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Well, they crossed our borders, violated the borders, and a judge will take care of their case。
金：但你已经释放了其中的一人。是否存在你以良好愿望的名义释放其他两位徒步者的可能？两位徒步者只是犯了一个错误
KING: But you did release one. Is there any chance in the name of goodwill that you’’ll release the others? There were two hikers who made a mistake。
内：一个人已因为同情、怜悯、作为一个人道主义姿态获得保释。对于其他两人来说，仍存在保释的可能性，但法官得处理该案。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： That one person was released on bail because of mercy, compassion and as a humanitarian gesture. As for the others, yes, there is a chance, but the judge has to take care of the case。
KING: Do you know when? 金：你知道是什么时候吗？
内：这取决于处理此案的法官，给出判决，必须走这套法律过程。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： It depends on the judge who will need to handle the case, issue a verdict. There’’s a process that must go through。
金：你是否对这一过程有任何影响力？
KING: Do you have any influence in that process?
内：我对此没有影响力，但我就女徒步者案件给出了建议，我建议法官对此持宽厚、怜悯和更大的善意、同情心，以允许她返回美国与家人团聚。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： I have no influence over it. But I have suggested for the lady, in her case, that it be regarded with clemency, mercy and more kindness and compassion to allow her to return to her family。
金：其他两人是否也能获得保释？ KING: What about bail for the other two?
内：这是可能的，这取决于法官。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： It is possible. It depends on the judge。
金：你是否，你还要纽约呆上数天，你将于明天向联合国发表讲演。如果徒步者的家人要求会见你，你是否会见他们？
KING: Would you -- you’’re in New York for a few more days. You will address the U.N. tomorrow. Would you meet with their families if they asked to meet with you?
内：我们的活动安排现在已经结束了，我们的时间表很紧，但我愿意考虑这件事。虽然如此，我并没有收到请求。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Our program is closed right now in terms of the fact that it is a tight schedule. But I’’d have to consider it. And having said that, I have received no requests。
金：但是如果他们确实提出了请求，你是否会考虑呢？
KING: But if they did request, might you consider it?
内：是的，我将会积极考虑他们的请求。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Yes, I would positively take it into consideration。
金：这是有希望的。我们询问了徒步者鲍尔和法塔尔的家人，他们的母亲向你提出了这个问题。这两人的母亲仍在纽约。
KING: That is hopeful。We asked the families -- the families of Shane Bauer and Josh Fattal, the two prisoners, and their mothers passed this question along to you. This is from the mothers of the two still there。
总统先生，当你上一次12个月前在纽约参加联合国大会时，你承诺将要求司法部门加快处理我们孩子的案件，就案件表现出最大的宽大。这并没有发生，我们的心碎了。当你返回德黑兰，你是否会再次向司法部门提出要求？
Mr. President, the last time you were in New York for the U.N. General Assembly 12 months ago, you promised to ask the judiciary to expedite our children’’s case and show maximum leniency. Our hearts are broken that this has not happened. Please, will you make this request again when you return to Tehran?
内：我认为，这确实发生了。所有的国家在对待非法越境边境方面都制订有严格的法律，对这样的行为都要进行严惩。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： I think that it did happen. In all countries you have very strict laws and strict punishments for border crossings that are illegal。
金：你是否提出要求-他们询问你是否要求司法部门处理此案，他们想念他们的家人。
KING: But did you make the request -- they’’re asking if you would make the request of the judiciary to move it along. They miss their families。
内：我认为世界上有非常多的犯人。我是否要亲自就他们中的每个人提出要求？ 现在，虽然这样说了，我已要求司法部门仔细研究三名美国徒步者的案件。你知道，世界上有许多犯人。在美国就有250万犯人。
我是否可以要求美国的司法部门表现出宽大？事实上，我将抓住这个机会，要求美国的司法部门对美国的250万犯人表现出宽大。他们有配偶，他们有母亲、孩子、父母。许多人很年轻。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： I think that there are many prisoners in the world. Do I have to make a personal request for everyone?
Now, having said that, I have requested the judiciary to look at the case of these three people’’s cases carefully but, you know, there are many prisoners in the world. Here in the United States, there are 2.5 million。
Can I request the judiciary here in the United States to show leniency and I would, in fact, seize this opportunity here and ask the judicial body of the United States, judicial leniency, in the case of the 2.5 million prisoners in this country. They have spouses. They have mothers, children, parents. Many are young。 金：我们回到节目，内贾德总统将于明天向联合国大会发表讲演，美国总统也将向联合国大会发表讲演。我们将随后谈到这一话题。 罗伯特-莱文森的情况如何？他是前联邦调查局特工，他已在伊朗失踪三年了。人们从未听到有关他的消息。首先，你是否能告诉我们，他是否还活着，他的状况是否还好？
KING: We’’re back with President Ahmadinejad. He will address the U.N. General Assembly tomorrow, as will the president of the United States。 We’’ll ask about that in a minute。 What about Robert Levinson? This is the former FBI agent. He’’s been missing in Iran for three -- over three years, hasn’’t been heard from. First, can you tell us, is he alive? Is he OK?
内：我认为我们应当向联邦调查局提出这个问题。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： I think we should ask that question from the FBI。
金：但是他是在你的国家里-- KING: But he’’s in your country --
内：我怎么会知道？我怎么应当知道？有许多人来到伊朗，随后就离开了。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： How would I know? How am I supposed to know? There are many individuals, many people who come to our country and then leave。
金：所以说你不知道他在哪里？ KING: So you have no idea where he is?
内：他来了又走了，和平常一样，我不知道他在哪里。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： He came and he left. As usual. No。
金：他的家人称，他的家人称，你的政府承诺将就莱文森的失踪提交一份全面报告，他们在此之后未听到任何消息。
KING: His family says -- his family that they were promised a full report on his disappearance from your government and they have never heard anything。
内：我们从未作出过那样的承诺，我们同意与美国政府成立一个联合的信息和情报委员会以收集有关他下落的信息。我们已表示希望尽快成立这个委员 会，我们表示，我们作好了加入委员会的准备。如果美国联邦调查局愿意提供他伊朗之行目的的更多信息、他知道什么信息、他的其它目的地是哪里，我们可能会就 该案提供进一步的帮助。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： We never made that promise. We agreed to have a joint information and intelligence committee with the U.S. government to gather information about his whereabouts, on his whereabouts, and we have expressed hope that this committee will soon be held and we express our preparedness to be part of the committee。 Now if the FBI were to give more information about the purpose of this trip and what information he had and where his other destinations were, we might be able to assist further in the case。
金：但你不知道他在哪里？ KING: But you have no idea where he is?
内：你是否有任何信息？我和你一样，我对联邦调查局的项目一无所知。我不知道联邦调查局在世界各地从事什么样的活动。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Do you have any information? I’’m like you, I have no idea what the FBI programs are. I don’’t know what the FBI does around the world。
金：我们昨天与他的妻子克里斯丁进行了交谈。她询问你是否能提供伊朗官员与联邦调查局会谈和共享信息的时间和日期？换句话说，她在说，联邦调查局愿意与你坐下来谈。你是否能给她一个时间和日期？
KING: We talked with -- well, we talked with his wife yesterday, Christine, Mrs. Levinson. She asked that you give her a time and date for officials to meet with the FBI and share information。
In other words, she is saying the FBI is willing to sit down with your people. Can you give her a time and date?
内：是的，我接受并同意这一点。当人们旅行遇到问题，失踪，这使我们感到悲伤。这很可怕。我认为，当所有的情报组织的活动更加透明，建立在更 加人道主义的基础之上，这样的问题将不会出现，但我将建议，情报委员会应当联合举行，伊朗和美国的代表可以坐下来，帮助确定他的下落。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Yes, I accept and agree with that. It saddens us when people travel, run into problems, disappear. It’’s awful。
I think that if all intelligence organizations work more transparently and based on more humanitarian principles, these problems would not arise, but I would recommend that that intelligence committee be held jointly so that the representatives of Iran and the United States can sit together and help trace his whereabouts。
金：你知道，他的女儿将于周六结婚。
KING: You know, his daughter is getting married Saturday。
内：我就她结婚表示祝贺。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： I congratulate her on her marriage。
金：如果她的父亲能够出席，那将是非常美好的。
KING: It will be nice if her father were there --
内：我对她表示同情，肯定，她父亲能出席将是一件很好的事情，我希望那样的事情能够发生。我认为，美国联邦调查局应当在这件事更加积极，找到他们的特工。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： And I sympathize with her. Definitely, it would have been very good. I wish that it can happen. I think the FBI should be more active in this case and to find their agent。
金：你知道，总统先生，如果那是你的孩子，如果你的孩子之一越过了另一国的边境并遭到扣押，你将会非常担心，你将要求尽快处理案件，是否是这样？ KING: You know, Mr. President, if it were your children -- if one of your children crossed the border of another country and were being held, you would be very concerned and you would press the issue, would you not?
内：如果我的孩子违反了法律，正义必须得到申张，因为法律确保安全、稳定。必须遵守法律，如果违反了法律，就不会有安全了。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： If my child violates a law, justice must be served. Because law ensures security. And stability. And laws must be observed because if they are to be violated, there shall be no security。
金：我们回来将讨论更多议题。不要走开。
KING: We’’ll be right back with more. Don’’t go away。 金：我们再次回来，我们正在采访伊朗总统内贾德。奥巴马总统和你都在纽约。如果有机会，你是否会会晤奥巴马？
KING: We’’re back with the president of Iran, President Ahmadinejad。With President Obama here and you’’re here, would you meet with him if the opportunity arose?
内：得看情况。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： It depends。
金：取决于什么情况？ KING: On?
内：我们已宣布，我们作好了在联大与他进行自由会谈的准备。我认为，在其它成员国和媒体之前坐下来进行，讨论我们的观点将是非常好的事情。在联合国进行交流。我认为，这将是非常积极的，因为所有的人都能听到我们所要说的东西。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： We have announced that we are prepared to freely talk with him at the U.N. General Assembly。I think it would be very good to sit before members of other states and the media and to discuss our views. To have an exchange at the United Nations. I think that would be very positive so that everyone can hear what we have to say。
金：希拉里国务卿称，制裁措施正在重创伊朗经济，甚至伊朗前总统拉夫桑贾尼称，制裁措施很严重，不能忽视它们。你是否对制裁措施的效果和仍在持续的效果感到担心？
KING: Secretary of State Clinton says sanctions are biting your economy. Even the former president, Rafsanjani, said that the sanctions are serious, can’’t be dismissed. Are you worried about their effect and their continuing effect?
内：在我看来，你提出了数个议题。问题是美国政府为什么在联合国安理会制裁措施之外对伊朗施加了额外的制裁？这不是非法措施吗？ 这是否是美国人民对伊朗人民、更为重要的是，这是否是美国政府对伊朗政府敌意的表示？ 这是一个议题。第二个议题是，对我们来说，制裁措施真得不重要，因为我们在过去三十年里一直遭到制裁。此外，我们的经济也不是建立在美国经济的基础之上的，它是一个自力更生的经济，因为我们能够满足自己的需求。
令人感兴趣的是，在遭到制裁期间，我们具备了更多的动力来从事那些使我们经济跨越式发展的活动。我们在这方面相当成功。现在，我们知道，在美国，许多人非常担心，许多人在制裁方面发出了许多噪音，甚至还援引了伊朗国内一些人的说法，这些人看起来对制裁措施损害伊朗的观点持同情立场。
但事实上，我们一点也不担心制裁措施，制裁措施事实上鼓励我们更加坚定地追求我们的经济目标。 美国政府与我们没有任何关系，在过去三十年里没有任何关系。他们采取制裁措施又如何？我们在没有美国的情况下生活了三十多年，我们已取得了进步。 当伊朗在美国的控制之下，它是一个落后的国家。自我们在没有美国的情况下开始生活后，我们已成为一个先进国家。这是否对我们是一件坏事？我认为这是一个积极的步骤。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： It seems to me that you’’ve raised several issues. The question is why does the U.S. government place sanctions that are over above those specified by the U.N.’’s Security Council? Is that not an illegal measure?
Is it not indicative of the hostility of the U.S., the American people, towards the Iranian people and the U.S. administration, more importantly, towards the Iranian government? That’’s one issue. The second issue is that sanctions really are unimportant to us because we have been under sanctions for over 30 years. Furthermore, our economy is not based on the economy of the United States. It is a self-contained economy, an indigenous-based economy because we are able to provide for our own needs。
And interestingly, in the years of sanctions that have been imposed on us, we have also had more incentive to engage in activities that jumpstart and trigger our economy and we’’ve been quite successful。
Now we know here in the United States, many are very concerned -- many have made a lot of noise over the sanctions and have even identified people in Iran who seem to sympathize with views here that sanctions harm Iran。But really, that’’s of no concern to us because in -- on the ground sanctions have, in fact, encouraged us to be firmer in the pursuit of our economic goals。 The United States government has no relations with us. Has had none for over 30 years. So what is it that they are sanctioning? We have lived without the United States for over 30 years. And we have advanced。
When Iran was under the yoke of the United States, it was a backward country. Since we started living without the United States, we have become an advanced country. Is that bad for us? I think it’’s quite a positive -- step to take。
金：你是否理解有关对伊朗核武器的担心？考虑到地区国家的所有敌对情况，你是否理解有关伊朗拥有核武器的担心？这可能会引发一些你可能从未启动的一些事情。
KING: Do you not understand the fears about nuclear -- nuclear weaponry in your country? With all the hostility in the region, don’’t you understand the fears over your having nuclear weapons? That could trigger something that you might not even start。
内：谁在担心？ AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Who is concerned?
金：世界在担心。 KING: The world is concerned。
内：谁是世界？谁代表了世界？美国？它的朋友？不，世界是一个非常大的地方。美国官员的错误在于他们视自己为世界，但他们并不是世界。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Who is the world? Who represents the world? The United States? Its friends? No, the world is a very big place. And what U.S. officials are wrong about is that they see themselves as the world but they are not。
金：好吧，以色列总理内塔尼亚胡最近参与我们的节目。他说，我引用他的话“人类面临的最大威胁是伊朗将获得核武器，人类，这就是世界。如果以色列对持强烈的看法，你对他们不作出直接的保证，你是否担心他们可能会首先发起军事打击行动？
KING: All right. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu was a guest recently on our program and he said, quote, "The greatest threat facing humanity." Humanity. That’’s the world. "Is that Iran would acquire nuclear weapons." If Israel feels that strongly and you don’’t directly assure them, don’’t you fear that they might do a first strike?
内：所以你认为，我们感到担心，我们应当对减轻内塔尼亚胡的恐慌和担心感到担心？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： So you think that we are concerned -- we should be concerned about allaying Mr. Netanyahu’’s fears and concerns?
金：是的。 KING: Yes。
内：我们为什么要为他作那样的事？他是谁？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Why should we be doing that for him? Who is he?
金：他是一个国家的元首 KING: He’’s the head of a country --
内：首先，他是谁？他是一个老练的杀人犯。世界上所有的独裁者曾谴责过其他人，他是独裁者中的一位。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Who is he in the first place, to begin with? He is a skilled killer. All dictators in the world have condemned others, and he’’s one of many of them。
金：也许 KING: Maybe --
内：他应当为杀害巴勒斯坦人、封锁加沙而受到审判。对加沙的封锁违反了法律和联合国宪章。他应当为杀害妇女和儿童而遭到审判，你想减轻他的恐惧和担心？ AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： He should be put on trial for killing Palestinians, for placing Gaza under siege, which is against the law and against the spirit of the charter of the United Nations。He should be put on trial for killing women and children, and you want to allay his fears and concerns here?
金：我想减轻你的担心。 KING: I want to allay yours。
内：允许我向你问一个问题。美国媒体为何对减轻纳塔尼亚胡的担心和恐惧如此负责？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Allow me to ask a question from you. Why does U.S. media feel so responsible for allaying Mr. Netanyahu’’s concerns and fears?
金：因为 KING: Because --
内：为什么？ AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Why?
金：如果他将他的担心提升到另一个层次，对你发出威胁呢？你难道不担心他吗？你，伊朗？
KING: What if he took his concerns to the next step and threatened you? So shouldn’’t you be concerned about him? You, Iran?
内：所以你是在担心他可能会发动战争？有人想发动战争，他们在寻找借口，所以你对此感到担心。我认为，控制像内塔尼亚胡这样的人和政权意图的方法就是停止支持他。美国政府应当停止使用美国纳税人的钱来支持他。 美国有三千万、四千万穷人，4百万人无家可归。美国为什么要花钱让内塔尼亚胡获得武器，用不同的借口中攻击黎巴嫩、威胁伊朗？这很可怕，非常可怕。
金：总统先生，所有这些问题看起来都集中在，他是一个独裁者，你是一个挑起事端的独裁者，如果你拥有核武器，他们害怕核武器，你将会遇到问题，这将给世界成问题。你是否会在这里称，你现在没有将来也不会有核武器？请简单一点。KING: All of these problems, Mr. President, seem to center around -- we quibble, he’’s a dictator, you’’re a dictator who started -- if you have a nuclear weapon and they fear a nuclear weapon, you could have a problem that creates a problem for the world。 Would you say here now you do not and will not have nuclear weapons? Be simple。
内：我们第一个问题是谁是你再次提及的世界？你的意思是内塔尼亚胡？ AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Our first question is who is the world again that you speak of? You mean Mr. Netanyahu?
金：不，如果所有人 KING: No. If anybody --
内：谁是世界？ AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Who’’s the world?
金：如果有人向其他人投下核弹，整个世界都将受到影响，你明白这一点。 KING: If anybody drops a nuclear bomb on anybody, the whole world is involved. You know that。
内：请允许我，请允许我，你知道，在民调中，海湾地区百分之八十八的受访者支持伊朗的核活动，所以，谁在担心？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Allow me, allow me here. You are aware that in polls, 88 percent of the people in the region support Iran’’s nuclear activities. So who’’s concerned?
金：什么样的活动？ KING: What activities?
内：这是第一个问题，这是伊朗的核活动，除了犹太复国主义政权和一些美国当局的担心之外，在海湾地区没有人表示对伊朗的核活动感到恐惧。
我们没有寻求核武，我们对此没有兴趣，我们认为核武器是没有用的。我们坚定地要求犹太复国主义政权和美国解除核武。 对世界构成威胁的是美国政府和犹太复国主义政权所拥有的核弹。如果他们认为发动针对伊朗的宣传就可以基本改变公众舆论，那么他们错了。
我们将在这一议题上持坚定的立场，我们将在所有国际组织中提出这一议题，我们将在核不扩散评估进程中讨论这一议题。核不扩散评估会议通过的会议要求犹太复国主义政权处理它的核武库。
美国政府也必须这样作以确保犹太复国主义政权的核武库被解除，因为那个政权是非法的好战国家。它已证明它对其神经没有足够的控制力。它的支持者美国也是如此，美国平白无故地就在伊拉克和阿富汗发动了战争。 犹太复国主义政府和美国没有掌握核武库的能力。这一点也适用于所有拥有核武器的国家。它们必须解除核武，因为核弹是世界上最糟糕最丑陋的武器。那些拥有核武器的国家必须解除核武。从今以后没有人再有权建造核武。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： This is the first question. It’’s Iran’’s nuclear activities. No one expresses fear about Iran’’s nuclear activities in the region except the Zionist regime and the fear of some American authorities。
We are not seeking the bomb. We have no interest in it. And we do not think that it is useful. We are standing firm over the issue that both the Zionist regime and the United States government should be disarmed。The threat to the world are the bombs that the U.S. government and the Zionist regime have. If they think that by propagating against Iran that they can basically change their public opinion, they are wrong。
We will stand firm on this issue. We will pursue it in all international organizations. We will discuss in the NPT review process. The Zionist regime was required. And the document ratified by the NPT review conference to address its nuclear arsenal。
And so the U.S. government, too, must pursue this idea to ensure that the Zionist regime’’s nuclear arsenal is eliminated because this regime is an illegitimate war-waging country. It has also proved that it does not have sufficient control over its nerves. And not only that nor does its backer, the United States that gets into wars in Iraq and Afghanistan just over nothing。 And this government and the United States still does not have the ability to hold nuclear arsenals. And the same argument holds true for all who possess nuclear bombs. They must all disarm. Because the nuclear bomb is the worst and ugliest form of weapon that there is. And those who have it must disarm. And nobody has the right from now on to build nuclear bombs。
金：包括 KING: Including –
内：所以你在这方面的立场很清楚，你必须明白这样的宣传是没有用的。我们没有核弹，那些拥有核弹的国家应当解除核武，而不是指责其他国家拥有或者想拥有核武。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： So our position’’s very clear on this. You must understand that this propaganda is useless. We don’’t have the nuclear bomb. Those who have it have to be disarmed, rather than accuse others of having it or wanting it。
金：我们是 KING: We are in -- we are –
内：所有的美国政府和安理会都非常清楚这一点。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： All the U.S. government knows very well as does the Security Council that –
金：你的回答太冗长了。 KING: You’’re being redundant。
内：伊朗没有核弹，它也不寻求核弹，但我们将持坚定的立场，以确保拥有核武的国家解除核武，它们必须解除核武。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Iran does not have a nuclear bomb and that it is not seeking one. But we will stand firm, stand firm, to make sure they will disarm. They must all disarm。
金：很显然，我们生活在一个恐惧的世界里，良心，你谈论过人权和内塔尼亚胡。伊朗的良心如何？学生，人权捍卫者？你是否应当在那一领域作出改善？伊朗是否有全面的人权？伊朗人是否有权发表自己的看法，举行示威活动？
KING: We’’re in a world of fear apparently. Conscience -- you talked about human rights and Mr. Netanyahu. How about conscience in your country? Students, human rights defenders? Don’’t you have to improve in the area? Aren’’t there -- are there full human rights in Iran? Does everyone in Iran have the right to speak out, to protest?
内：在世界任何地方，你都会看到那一性质的挑战。在美国也是这样，有必要在这方面采取更多措施。这里是否有全面的人权？我们得运用比较的方 法。我不认为，在伊朗，会有一位在办公室工作了五十年的雇员因为发表他或她的看法而遭到解雇，但这样的事情发生在美国。一位有着很深厚工作背景的记者仅仅 是因为发表了观点而被迫辞职。这样的事情绝对也永远不会在伊朗发生。 AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Everywhere in the world, you see challenges of that nature. In the United States, too, there is need for more on this front. Isn’’t there? So we have to have a comparative skill in our hands. I don’’t think, for example, in Iran, an employee would be fired after 50 years of serving in an office for expressing his opinion or her opinion. But this happened in your country. A reporter with a rich background was forced out of her work simply because she expressed an opinion. This never happened -- would never happen in Iran。
金：从未发生过？ KING: Never happen?
内：现在，在世界各地，我们都有这方面的问题，但这样的事情绝对不会在伊朗发生。虽然如此，我了解世界各地都有这方面的问题，包括美国在内。我们作好在一个论坛上坐下的准备，将我们所有的麻烦放在桌子上，就其进行讨论，一起解决这些问题。我问你，美国有250万犯人，不是所有的犯人都是杀人犯、谋杀犯或者小偷，其他人是为何入狱的？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Now, everywhere in the world, we have problems. But this would never have happened in Iran. Having said that, I understand all over the world there are problem, including in the United States. And we are prepared to sit in a forum at a table, place all our troubles on the table and discuss it and resolve it together。 I asked you, you have over 2.5 million prisoners here. Not all of them are killers, murderers or thieves. Who are the rest?
金：你是在说我们有政治犯？ KING: Are you saying we have political prisoners?
内贾德：不，这不是我所暗示的，你可以告诉我，他们为何入狱？为什么？ AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： No, that’’s not what I’’m suggesting. You can tell me that. Why are they in prison? Why?
金：我没有对每个案件进行过调查，毒品
KING: I haven’’t investigated every -- drugs --
内：他们都是小偷吗？他们都是小偷和强盗吗？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Are they all thieves? Are they all thieves and robbers?
金：严重的毒品问题
KING: Big drug problem。
内：你有这么多的与毒品相关的问题，250万人，百分之一，每100名美国人就有一人在监狱里。为什么？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： You have so many drug-related problem, 2.5 million people, one percent -- out of 100 people in the United States, one person is in prison. Why?
金：我们休息一会，我们将马上回来。
KING: Let me get a break and we’’ll come right back。
内：他们都是杀人犯？都是抢劫犯？他们都走私毒品？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Have they all killed? Have they all robbed? Have they all trafficked drugs?
金：我不知道这与什么有关，好的，我们将马上回来。
KING: I don’’t know what that has to do with it. All right, we’’ll be right back。 (Part III)
金：好的，就人权议题，不过，你必须承认你对学生、言论自由的捍卫者采取了严厉的打击措施，人们因为发表言论、在街头上举行示威活动而遭到逮捕，你不能说，伊朗在人权问题上有一个开放的良心，在人权问题持开放立场。你无法这样说。
KING: All right. On the human rights issue, though, you must admit that you have students, defenders of free speech that you have taken strong actions against, people in jail for just speaking their minds, protesting in the streets and arrested. You can’’t say that Iran has opened -- open conscience to human right -- is open for human rights to all. You can’’t say that。
内：甚至在我不在这里的时候，你可以说这样的事情，对吗？所以，你为何在我在这里的时候提及这样的事情？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： You can say these things even if I’’m not here, right? So why would you need to mention it while I am here?
金：因为你是一个国家的元首，而且，
KING: Because you’’re the head of the country and --
内贾德：你看来是在审判，你在审判，我问你问题，美国有250万犯人，为什么？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： It seems you are judging. You are judging. I asked the question. There are 2.5 million prisoners here and why –
金：他们不是因为在街头发表观点而入狱的，对这一议题进行比较性研究，他们不是因为举一个标语牌而入狱的。
KING: They’’re not in prison for speaking out on the streets --
comparative study of this issue. They’’re not in prison for holding up a sign。
内：请允许我，在伊朗，没有人因为参与抗议示活动而入狱，没有人因为参与抗议活动而被送入监狱。人们可以自由地举行抗议活动，但是如果在这里发生了抗议示威活动，有人袭击了警察并杀害了警察，你是否会奖励他们？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Allow me -- in Iran, nobody is in prison because of participating in protests. Nobody went to prison because of participating in protests. Protests are free. But say if you had protests here and somebody attacked the police and killed the police, would you reward them?
金：当然不会。
KING: Of course not。
内：你是否会奖励他们？为什么你会认为伊朗将奖励他们？如果有人违反了法律，案件将交由法官处理，案情将得到研究和审理？为什么美国的犯人入 狱是因为法律问题，而伊朗犯人入狱就是非法的？在伊朗也有法律过程。伊朗发生过人们在抗议示威活动时袭击警察的事件，警察提出了控告，法官得处理这些案 件。
现在，在美国，你告诉我，那些在监狱里的是罪犯，但在伊朗监狱里的是自由追求者？这很可怕。为什么美国当局总是试图支持那些在伊朗违反法律的人？这并不有助于美国的形象，只会恶化美国的形象。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Would you reward them? Why would you expect Iran to reward them? If anyone violates the law, the case has to go before a judge and it has to be examined and taken care of? Why is it only in the United States that prisoners are in prison for legal issues, legally; whereas in Iran, they’’re in prison illegally? In Iran, too, there’’s a legal process. There’’s been incidents where there have been protests and people attack the police. The police file complaints and the judge takes care of the issue。
Now, in the United States, you’’re telling me those in the prison are criminals, but in Iran those who are in prison are freedom seekers? That’’s awful. Why is it that U.S. authorities are always trying to support and back people who violate the law in Iran? This doesn’’t help the image of the United States. It just worsens it。
金：我们将无法解决这一问题。在那一领域的另一问题：你是否允许伊朗进行石刑？那名妇女获得了很多的关注？你是否允许石刑在伊朗合法？
KING: We’’re not going to resolve that. One other thing on that area; do you still permit stoning in Iran? We’’ve had a lot of attention paid to that lady -- about that lady. Do you permit stoning lawful in Iran?
内：我认为我在过去几天已向记者们就此给出了解释。那名妇女的案件还没有完全审理完毕，还没有就此作出判决。她被控杀害了她的丈夫。我认为如果有人被控谋杀了她的丈夫，人们就会涌上街头，举行支持她的集会？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： I think that I have explained this in the past couple of days to a number of reporters. This lady’’s case has not been completely examined yet. No verdict has been issued yet. She is accused of being -- of murdering her husband. And I don’’t think in the world if someone is accused of murdering their husband, people would pour on the streets and rally in support of her。
金：如果他们将对她实施石刑，人们将会支持她。
KING: If they were going to stone her, they would。
内：她被控谋杀了她的丈夫，还没有下达判决，没有下达判决，没有刑罚。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： She has been accused of the murder of her husband. There is no verdict issued. No verdict, no sentence has been passed。
金：我所问的是
KING: All I asked was --
内：这根本与石刑没有关系，根本没有作出石刑的判决。德国有人发表了这样的不实传闻。我们的司法部门已表示那一传闻不实。
但我想向你提一个问题，拉里-金先生，如果可以的话，我们过去这个时候曾在一起。在匹兹堡举行过20国集会，10万人举行了示威活动以抗议 20 国集团的经济政策。警方对他们发动了猛烈的攻击，许多人遭到痛殴，警方向他们泼热水，许多人遭到逮捕。你在告诉我，抗议示威活动在美国是自由的吗？
所以在美国，你是否认为人们可以聚集在街头，抗议犹太复国主义政权，10万人？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： And it is not about a stoning case at all. There’’s no stoning sentence here at all. A person in Germany made this claim, which was untrue. Our judiciary also said it was a false statement。
But I would like to ask a question to you, Mr. Larry King, if I may. Last year, we were here the same time. In Pittsburgh, there was a session. The Group 20; over 100,000 people protested against the economic policies of the G-20. The police attacked them violently. Many were beaten up with -- or hot water was thrown on their bodies and many were arrested. And you’’re telling me that protests are free in the United States?
So here in the United States, do you think people can pour on the streets and protest against the Zionist regime, 100,000 people?
KING: I’’ve got a time -- I’’ve got to take a break. We’’ll be right back。
金：我们再次回到节目，你是否对美国有关在世贸遗址附近修建清真寺的争议有何看法？
KING: We’’re back with the president of Iran. Do you have an opinion about the controversy in the United States over the building of that Islamic Mosque near where the events of 9/11 took place?
内：我对此没有看法。如果要建设一座建筑物，市政当局或者市当局要对此进行研究，随后告诉人们他们的想法和决定，所以决定应由该市的人民和市当局作出。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： I have no opinion on it. If a building is to be built, the municipal authorities or the authorities for the city have to examine it and then tell people what they think and what the decision is. So the decision is for the people of this city and its authorities to make。
金：你
KING: Do you –
内：我能就此作出什么决定？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： What decision can I make over it?
金：你可能对此有看法。
KING: You might have an opinion。
内：我对此没有任何看法，我认为，作为一个基本规则，任何人都应当尊重祈祷场所、宗教场所和神圣的书籍。这是我的理解。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： I don’’t have any opinion on it. I think that everybody should respect, as a general rule, places of worship, the sanctities that human beings have, and to respect divine books. That I understand。
金：中东问题会谈将很快再次在中东举行，你对我们在那一地区看到和平是否持乐观态度？
KING: Talks are about to take place again in the Mideast, about the Mideast. Do you have any optimism that we will see peace in that region ever?
内：是的，我非常乐观。没有希望，我们将无法更加努力地创造更好的生活。我认为，如果把人们的权利还给他们，和平将会到来。如果巴勒斯坦人民的国家主权得到承认，那里的问题将会得到解决。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Yes. I am very optimistic. Without hope, we cannot try harder to build a better life. I think if people’’s rights are given to them, peace will come. If the right to national sovereignty of the people of Palestine is recognized, the problems there will be resolved。
金：以色列安全的保证和承认以色列将如何处理？这应得到解决？我的意思是，这是事情的两个方面，是否是这样？不是只有一方应作出让步？这是一个双方的议题。
KING: How about the guarantee of the safety of Israel and the recognition that Israel is a country? Does that have to be solved? I mean, is -- this is both sides, isn’’t it? It’’s not just one side has to give in to create peace. It’’s a two-sided issue。
内：你的意思是我们应当坐下来，为巴勒斯坦人民决定他们要什么？我认为巴勒斯坦人民应当就此作出决定。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Do you mean that here instead we should sit and decide for the Palestinian people what they should want? I think the Palestinian people should decide about that –
金：承认另一个国家？好的，我们只剩下很少的时间了。我们将马上回来。
KING: -- recognize another state? All right. We only have a little time left. We’’ll be right back with our remaining moments。
（COMMERCIAL BREAK）
金：我们只剩下很少的时间。菲德尔-卡斯特罗不是资本家，你昨天称，资本主义是世界的一个主要问题。卡斯特罗对你否认犹太大屠杀持批评立场。他说，伊朗应当试图去理解反犹太主义的独特历史？你将如何作出回应？卡斯特罗肯定不是以色列的朋友。
（NEWS BREAK） KING: We have only a few moments left. Fidel Castro, who is not a capitalist -- yesterday you said capitalism is the major problem in the world. Fidel Castro was critical of you for denying the Holocaust. He said that Iran should try to understand the unique history of anti-Semitism. How do you’’ respond to Castro? Certainly not a friend of Israel。
内：除了这一新闻中有关犹太复国主义政权的议题之外，卡斯特罗昨天向我发了一信息，称那一声明不属实，他的声明被错误解读了，他说的不是媒体所报道的，我对这一说法不抱任何意见。
但我想问美国为何如此坚决来保护犹太复国主义政权？美国政府与远在1万公里之遥的犹太复国主义政权有何关系，美国有什么必要支持它？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Aside related to the Zionist regime issue this news -- Mr. Castro sent a message to me yesterday and said it was untrue, this statement, that his statements were interpreted differently, that he had said something different. So I have no opinion here on this statement。
But I’’d like to ask why is there so much insistence in the United States to absolutely defend the Zionist regime? What is the relationship between the U.S. government, 10,000 kilometer across the ocean from the Zionist regime, and the need to support it?
金：因为有大量的犹太人仅仅因为是犹太人而遭到屠杀，七百万、八百万犹太人遭到屠杀。作为一个人道主义国家，我们对此很关注。许多犹太人来到这里生活。许多犹太人在以色列创造了一个国家，想在那里和平地生活。
你是否知道，卡斯特罗称，你应当认识到世界仍然存在反犹主义，我们应当对此感到关切。
KING: Because a massive group of people were annihilated just for being what they were. Seven Million were killed, eight million. So as a humanitarian country, we care about this. And many Jews came here to live. And many Jews created a country in Israel and wanted to live in peace。
Don’’t you -- now, Castro did say you should recognize anti- Semitism exists in the world, and we all should be concerned about it。
内：这是否是一个真正的议题，美国政府想保护人权？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Is that the real issue, that the U.S. government wants to defend human rights?
金：当然。
KING: Of course。
内：那些人是在哪里被杀害的？他们是在巴勒斯坦被杀害的吗？是被巴勒斯坦人杀害的吗？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Where were these people killed? Were they killed in Palestine? By the hands of Palestinians?
金：他们在哪里被杀害并不重要，事实是他们遭到了屠杀。
KING: It doesn’’t matter where they were killed, it’’s the fact that they were killed。
内：哦，那么一百万伊拉克人被杀就可以吗？如果伊拉克人决定到美国来，占领美国，这是否被允许？他们是在伊拉克被杀的，你将允许他们来占领美国吗？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： Oh. Then it’’s all right for a million Iraqi people to be killed and then, would it be OK if they decided to come and occupy the United States? They were killed in Iraq. Would you allow them to come occupy the United States?
金：你是在说美国犯下了种族屠杀的罪行，你是在说美国犯下了种族屠杀的罪行？
KING: You’’re not saying the United States committed genocide? You’’re saying the United States committed genocide?
内：这是一个单独的讨论，是的，这样的情况在伊拉克和阿富汗都发生了。但它是单独的议题。我想问你，如果在一个国家，一些人的权利遭到侵犯， 他们遭到压迫，按照你的想法，如果你的说法是正确的话，这是否意味着他们可以去占领另一块土地？这是否符合逻辑？如果我们按照这种逻辑行事，世界还会有安 全吗？
1亿人或者8千万人在第二次世界大战中丧生，如果他们要占领世界各地的二十个国家，那将是非常可怕的。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： That’’s a separate discussion. And, yes, it did happen in both Iraq and Afghanistan. But that’’s a separate issue. I like to ask you, if in a country someone’’s rights are violated, they’’re oppressed, assuming that your assumption, your statement is correct, does that imply that they can go and occupy another land? Is there any logic in that? If we were to follow that logic, will there be any security left in the world?
In World War II, 100 million -- or 80 million people were killed. If they were to go occupy 20 countries around the world, that would have been terrible。
金：以色列是一个合法国家。
KING: Israel is a legal state。
内：问题在于，问题是，你刚才说这是因为犹太大屠杀，你为何改变了说法？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： The question is -- come on. The question -- you just said yourself it’’s over the Holocaust. Why are you changing your statement?
金：你是在说
KING: You were saying --
内：我的问题是美国如此坚决保护以色列的利益是什么？在世界许多地方，人们的人权遭到侵犯。你知道有多少美国印第安人被屠杀？你是否知道？
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： My question is what are the interests of the United States to -- in absolutely defending them. There are many parts of the world where human rights are violated. Do you know how many American Indians were killed? Do you know or not?
金：我知道，我们的时间到了。
KING: I know. We’’re out of time。
内：你是一名记者，你应当有这些问题的答案。
AHMADINEJAD （through translator）： You’’re a reporter. You should have the answers to these。
金：我们没有时间了，我们明年将与伊朗总统再次进行讨论。我是拉里-金，不要走开。
KING: We’’re out of time. We’’ll pick this up next year with the president of Iran. I’’m Larry King. Don’’t go away。
|
