In article <4kc6ev$...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,  Eric Rotzoll  <luos...@umich.edu> wrote:  >Ren Yanshi's little comparison of the human rights record of China and  >the US is a master piece of dsitortion and selective use of facts.    >Perhaps he should work the state department.  He stresses the changes  >  >Now before every wacko out there assumes I am saying China is all bad  >and that the US is perfection, I will say that is not so.  The US needs  >to improve a great deal.  China is improving.  But, if you expect to  >contribute anything useful to the issue at hand Mr. Ren, get your facts  >straight and be honest.    > Yes Mr. Ren.  Enjoyed reading your analysis of America, but "Let's not suck each other's dick yet" (Mr. Wolf in Pulp Fiction) Cut the crap on the Chinese comparison.  It weakens your argument that American State Dept failed to mention any human right abuse in the US. Besides, whose definition on human right?  Henry Wu's?  If America's unemployment rate is 30%, who gives @#$% on human right in China? Don't tell me those who stand in bitter cold on Chicago streets with signs that say "Will Work For Food" would give a damn that Chinese Government is making prisoners work.

xiao-lin li (x...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:  : In article <31694709.77D96...@east.asia>, Ren Yanshi2  <ch...@east.asia> wrote: : Oh God, this is a nuclear bomb against the American motherland, a naked : interference on the US domestic matter. I guess Bill Clinton has bought : the Chinese government to help win his election this year. :-) Wow, that guy dares to say that male tigers have penises! I would rather say that male tiger is beautiful and he has not any penis.

 In article <4kc6ev$...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,  Eric Rotzoll  <luos...@umich.edu> wrote:  >  >Now before every wacko out there assumes I am saying China is all bad  >and that the US is perfection, I will say that is not so.  The US needs  >to improve a great deal.  China is improving.  But, if you expect to  >contribute anything useful to the issue at hand Mr. Ren, get your facts  >straight and be honest.   I particularly like your sentence here. In fact I agree with you that the document is biased and politically motivated. I view America a lot better than what described by Ren. But perhaps, America's publication is also somewhat politically motivated. Such political attack on each other really hurt the heart of both Chinese and American people. Both should get to the ground and be more objective. If there is any progressive value in both the American and the Chinese documents, it has to be viewed by its opponents in a positive way. If that is the case, both the Chinese people and the American people will be benefitted. Let us wish for the best.

Eric Rotzoll wrote:  >  > Ren Yanshi's little comparison of the human rights record of China and  > the US is a master piece of dsitortion and selective use of facts.  > Perhaps he should work the state department.  He stresses the changes  > that have taken place in China and yet at the same time insists on a  > static analysis of the US.  A major problem with this analysis is that  > he can't seem to make up his mind as to what period this analysis will  > cover.  Thus, foe example he says there is no provision for equality in  > the US constitution when in fact that provision has existed for over 100  > years and has been progressively broadened by subsequent Supreme Court  > decisions.   Well, Ren Yanshi used statistical data, US human rights bashing   on China used discrete cases like the jailing of Wei Jingshen, a   traitor in the eyes of most Chinese, US also used Harry Wu, a   ex-convict who was jailed for theft and rape, who now   tries everything to revenge on Chinese government. If your senetors   and media naively believe a person such as Harry Wu, they make    themselves idiots.  A Recent US human rights bashing   even blamed China for cracking down a doomsday occult, the leader   of which committed a lot of crimes, such as rape.  >  > His comparisons on elections and homelessness are absurd.  >  > Voter turn-out is so impressive in China because it is coerced.  I  > remember very vivly Chinese classmates all being put on a bus and sent  > off to the polling place to vote for whoever the party chose. Not one  > showed any enthusiasm for this and all of those willing to express an  > opinion said it was a sham.  The biggest part of the sham of course is  > that while everyone can vote, there is no open access to the  > ballot---you won't see Wei Jingsheng on the ballot in China, but Gus  > Hall ran for years in the US.   According to Chinese law, a person convicted of crimes is deprived    of political rights for at least a number of years. Wei was   sentenced to prison for high treason.    Anyway,    Who would vote for Wei? an uneducated, arrogant, stupid person    shouting about  democracy--though he understands nothing about    it. Just read his bullshit stuff, you will who he is.    If the US takes anyone against China as its friend, then Chinese    have to think how we would answer the "enemy or friend" question.  >  > Homelessness is a serious problem in the US.  It is also a very serious  > problem in China.  I have been approached by more destitute beggers in  > Shanghai and Nanjing then I ever was in New York city.  I would ask Ren    You see they have the freedom to beg! On the first day in US,     I was asked by a nicely dressed woman for money to make a phone     call, I gave a quarter, but she then asked for food.    In China, beggers are often rich people, because Chinese are    sympathetic to those guys who pretended to be very miserable, and    the beggers make a lot of money.  > if there is no homelessness in China, then who are the mobs you find  > outside the rail stations in the major cities?  If there is no  > homelessness in China, why do half starved peasents from Anhui insist on  > showing me their ID cards to prove they come from poor regions and have  > no work or place to sleep?    Ren Yanshi did not say there was no homeless in China, he said the    the number is much smaller.  >  > The gender issue is many times more serious in China than in the US.  > Female students have told me that work units coming to their departments  > say flat out that they are not interested in hiring women.  Of course  > this is illegal, but the law doesn't count for much.    Well, the fact is Chinese women play much bigger role    in the society and family than US women.    For example, only recently, US had its first female general,    while in China, there are a number of them 40 years ago.    Chinese women are respected for their talent, their intellectual    capabilties in the Chinese society. There are a much bigger    proportion of female    scientists and engineers in China. In the game of Weiqi(Go),    there are a lot of high rank female professionals, like    Rui Naiwei 9Dan, who had victory over a number of Jap. male 9 Dans.  >  > Now before every wacko out there assumes I am saying China is all bad  > and that the US is perfection, I will say that is not so.  The US needs  > to improve a great deal.  China is improving.  But, if you expect to  > contribute anything useful to the issue at hand Mr. Ren, get your facts  > straight and be honest.   I think Ren has told the facts, now people can make their   own judgement.    YDX  >  >

 In article <316AC02F.793C5...@gold.tc.umn.edu>, yuex0...@gold.tc.umn.edu says...  >  >Eric Rotzoll wrote:  >>  >> Ren Yanshi's little comparison of the human rights record of China and  >> the US is a master piece of dsitortion and selective use of facts.  >> Perhaps he should work the state department.  He stresses the changes  >> that have taken place in China and yet at the same time insists on a  >> static analysis of the US.  A major problem with this analysis is that  >> he can't seem to make up his mind as to what period this analysis will  >> cover.  Thus, foe example he says there is no provision for equality in  >> the US constitution when in fact that provision has existed for over 100  >> years and has been progressively broadened by subsequent Supreme Court  >> decisions.  >  >  Well, Ren Yanshi used statistical data, US human rights bashing  >  on China used discrete cases like the jailing of Wei Jingshen, a  >  traitor in the eyes of most Chinese, I don't think so, see the comments on Wei JingSheng in http://www.bahnhof.se/~chps/results-feb.html How ever Harry Dog Wu is certainly a reincarnation of Wu San-Kui.  >US also used Harry Wu, a  >  ex-convict who was jailed for theft and rape, who now  >  tries everything to revenge on Chinese government. If your senetors  >  and media naively believe a person such as Harry Wu, they make  >   themselves idiots.  A Recent US human rights bashing  >  even blamed China for cracking down a doomsday occult, the leader  >  of which committed a lot of crimes, such as rape.  >  >>  >> His comparisons on elections and homelessness are absurd.  >>  >> Voter turn-out is so impressive in China because it is coerced.  I  >> remember very vivly Chinese classmates all being put on a bus and sent  >> off to the polling place to vote for whoever the party chose. Not one  >> showed any enthusiasm for this and all of those willing to express an  >> opinion said it was a sham.  The biggest part of the sham of course is  >> that while everyone can vote, there is no open access to the  >> ballot---you won't see Wei Jingsheng on the ballot in China, but Gus  >> Hall ran for years in the US.  >  >  According to Chinese law, a person convicted of crimes is deprived  >   of political rights for at least a number of years. Wei was  >  sentenced to prison for high treason.  >    >   Anyway,  >   Who would vote for Wei? an uneducated, arrogant, stupid person  >   shouting about  democracy--though he understands nothing about  >   it. Just read his bullshit stuff, you will who he is. I will vote for him, if overseas Chinese were allow to vote in a Democratic China. How can you be so shameless?  Sit in a save place to attack a person who have volutarily given up is freedom to exchange for other's freedom. The fact is, Wei can give up and denounce democratic movement, but he didn't give in. Who are you to critisize him? You probably couldn't stand a single second in the jail.  >  >   If the US takes anyone against China as its friend, then Chinese  >   have to think how we would answer the "enemy or friend" question.  >    >>  >> Homelessness is a serious problem in the US.  It is also a very serious  >> problem in China.  I have been approached by more destitute beggers in  >> Shanghai and Nanjing then I ever was in New York city.  I would ask Ren  >  >   You see they have the freedom to beg! On the first day in US,  >    I was asked by a nicely dressed woman for money to make a phone  >    call, I gave a quarter, but she then asked for food.  >  >   In China, beggers are often rich people, because Chinese are  >   sympathetic to those guys who pretended to be very miserable, and  >   the beggers make a lot of money.  >  >> if there is no homelessness in China, then who are the mobs you find  >> outside the rail stations in the major cities?  If there is no  >> homelessness in China, why do half starved peasents from Anhui insist on  >> showing me their ID cards to prove they come from poor regions and have  >> no work or place to sleep?  >  >   Ren Yanshi did not say there was no homeless in China, he said the  >   the number is much smaller.  >  >>  >> The gender issue is many times more serious in China than in the US.  >> Female students have told me that work units coming to their departments  >> say flat out that they are not interested in hiring women.  Of course  >> this is illegal, but the law doesn't count for much.  >  >   Well, the fact is Chinese women play much bigger role  >   in the society and family than US women.  >   For example, only recently, US had its first female general,  >   while in China, there are a number of them 40 years ago. Disney is going to release a cartoon about one of them in 1998, how ever, she did not live 40 years ago. Cantonese Han Culturalist From Malaysia Chiew Lee Yih  >  >   Chinese women are respected for their talent, their intellectual  >   capabilties in the Chinese society. There are a much bigger  >   proportion of female  >   scientists and engineers in China. In the game of Weiqi(Go),  >   there are a lot of high rank female professionals, like  >   Rui Naiwei 9Dan, who had victory over a number of Jap. male 9 Dans.  >  >      >>  >> Now before every wacko out there assumes I am saying China is all bad  >> and that the US is perfection, I will say that is not so.  The US needs  >> to improve a great deal.  China is improving.  But, if you expect to  >> contribute anything useful to the issue at hand Mr. Ren, get your facts  >> straight and be honest.  >  >  I think Ren has told the facts, now people can make their  >  own judgement.  >  >   YDX  >  >>  >>

 In article <316AC02F.793C5...@gold.tc.umn.edu>, YDX  <yuex0...@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:  > >  > > Homelessness is a serious problem in the US.  It is also a very serious  > > problem in China.  I have been approached by more destitute beggers in  > > Shanghai and Nanjing then I ever was in New York city.  I would ask Ren  >  >    You see they have the freedom to beg! Cheers for the great freedom we Chinese have.  > On the first day in US,  >     I was asked by a nicely dressed woman for money to make a phone  >     call, I gave a quarter, but she then asked for food.  >  >    In China, beggers are often rich people, because Chinese are  >    sympathetic to those guys who pretended to be very miserable, and  >    the beggers make a lot of money. Yeah, Chinese beggers are richer than American homeless people. Great.  More cheers.  > >  > > Now before every wacko out there assumes I am saying China is all bad  > > and that the US is perfection, I will say that is not so.  The US needs  > > to improve a great deal.  China is improving.  But, if you expect to  > > contribute anything useful to the issue at hand Mr. Ren, get your facts  > > straight and be honest.  >  >   I think Ren has told the facts, now people can make their  >   own judgement.  >  >    YDX  > I think Eric has told the facts too, now I made my own judgement: his arguement is much stronger than yours. JP  > >  > >

 In article <4kf34s$...@sunrise.pku.edu.cn> rk...@pku.edu.cn () writes:  >To be honest, I do not mean to discredit this posting completely.  >It does contains some useful information on the evalution of human  >rignts in the States and some impe.... To be honest, this paper provides much more statistical facts than the US paper (which contains mostly individual examples).  With the assumption that the basic facts are correct in both papers (nobody challenged them seriously so far except for some empty shoutings), this reflectsthe sharp difference in the definitions of HR. cai Sorry for posting in English.  I tried some Chinese but the system does not let me post them.

Yidao Cai (c...@boystown.org) wrote: : To be honest, this paper provides much more statistical facts than : the US paper (which contains mostly individual examples).  With the : assumption that the basic facts are correct in both papers (nobody : challenged them seriously so far except for some empty shoutings), this : reflectsthe sharp difference in the definitions of HR. I agree with you. America's trouble comes from their social system, as well as some of the side effects of western believes (eg, redical freedom). I really felt disgusted when I knew that they used human being to test the result of radiation of nuclear explosion. L.

 In article <4kf34s$...@sunrise.pku.edu.cn>,  <rk...@pku.edu.cn> wrote:  >Ren,  >  >Thank you very much for reminding us of the numerous rights that we  >enjoy in China. I should read this masterpiece to the students in  >my class and advise them not go to the horrible place, the United  >States of America, for their graduate education.  >  >Wait a moment. They may have already been fed with this kind of  >stuff from the White Paper on the Comparison of Human Right Status  >between China and the United States by PRC Government. They sound so  >familiar. Are you sure this is your original work? Actually, this WAS a translation of the white paper. "Ren Yanshi" is an aliase which stands for "Human Rights Research Office" of the PRC. The translation was posted anonymously from University of Minnesota. I thought I had cancelled it from alt.chinese.text but for some reason it is still here. I guess it was posted twice. Good to see someone posting from China. Do you get all the newsgroups in PKU (soc.culture.china, alt.chinese.text)?  Just curious.  Ya-Gui Wei -- -- Ya-Gui Wei 魏亚桂   E-mail: ya...@cs.indiana.edu  ya...@winternet.com WWW:  http://www.winternet.com/~yawei/   http://www.geeks.org/~yawei/

 In article <4kkfv8$...@daily-planet.nodak.edu>, j...@plains.nodak.edu (Lynn) wrote:  > I agree with you. America's trouble comes from their social system, as  > well as some of the side effects of western believes (eg, redical  > freedom). I really felt disgusted when I knew that they used human being  > to test the result of radiation of nuclear explosion.  >  > L. I wonder if you read some articles published lately in a few Chinese magzines  about the development of nuclear submarines. Though they might not be test subjects, soldiers were sent in to fix problems of nuclear reactors without proper protections. Did the authorities know the risk? You bet. Why didn't the authorities go there themselves, instead of risking other people's lives? Is it moral? Are you disgusted?

Ren, Thank you very much for reminding us of the numerous rights that we enjoy in China. I should read this masterpiece to the students in my class and advise them not go to the horrible place, the United States of America, for their graduate education. Wait a moment. They may have already been fed with this kind of stuff from the White Paper on the Comparison of Human Right Status between China and the United States by PRC Government. They sound so familiar. Are you sure this is your original work? To be honest, I do not mean to discredit this posting completely. It does contains some useful information on the evalution of human rignts in the States and some imperfections in the U.S. system. Tu Ping

J Peng (ag...@emrisc.eas.asu.edu) wrote:  : > I agree with you. America's trouble comes from their social system, as  : > well as some of the side effects of western believes (eg, redical  : > freedom). I really felt disgusted when I knew that they used human being  : > to test the result of radiation of nuclear explosion. : I wonder if you read some articles published lately in a few Chinese : magzines  about the development of nuclear submarines. Though they might : not be test subjects, soldiers were sent in to fix problems of nuclear : reactors without proper protections. Did the authorities know the risk? : You bet. Why didn't the : authorities go there themselves, instead of risking other people's lives? : Is it moral? Are you disgusted? I'd say, this is totally different from America's using human being as *test* subjects. This kind of incidence is undesired. Of course, things would be much better if they had proper protection. L.