2.你作为科学家,一定知道逻辑的重要性,严密定义的重要性。国家,政府,当政者与人民,祖国(homeland and motherland)有相当大的区别,不能相互随便替代。看政治问题,好像也应该基本区分对象的地位与责任,权利和义务。上帝的归上帝,撒旦的归撒旦。谁手上有无辜的人命,就该谁认罪。如果是受到上级乃至上级乃至上级的指示或命令,所有责任者都逃不掉该领的那份儿,不管他们自己承认不承认或者悔过不悔过。
seewhy9, thank you very much. I do not mean we should forget what happened. I do think there is something to do about, say, what happened on 6.4.89, and so on. But, hatred would ruin our own life. By the way, I helped that person by pretending on having found nothing about his wife's background during "Cleaning Jiaji Duiwu" after the cultural revolution without using hatred toward what he did to my father with the landlord issue (that person is also a family to me, but not so close). He was shocked (I should say) to thank me. I was a young assistant (they tried to persuade me into communist) to a person who was in charge. The person in charge did not say anything either because I did not say anything about the matter after we found something partially because my father was above that person in charge. That person I protected was very thankful to me since then. My family was not hurt too much because most people involved are also family members -only not too close and my father had too many friends at every level including one at the top level of the province (retired). We treated "enemy" as friends (most of them are indeed family members, say 5 to 10 generations away -- I am not sure).
About 6.4, I forgot ONE point why I said a little bit stronger on the beginning. I do not like some guys talking about 6.4 for USA's sake or act as somebody else's dog (I used dog there). Demonizing Chinese government is not what I like. Criticizing it, however harshly, is reasonable. I wrote in another place that the most important issue is to Jiushinengshi to figure out what to do to improve in order to make China even better (I love my birthland and I do not hate the government). Don't you agree? I feel deeply sorry for anybody who has suffered during 6.4 or anytime, but, AGAIN, hatred would only ruin our own life. Walk out from the hatred, being happy (not forgetting) makes your life better. Being DanDing about what is going on with Hu's visit. Life likes a drama; I am sorry but killing is inside the drama. I feel terribly bad even sometimes now when I watch some movie, but I do not choose to hate. I am trying to help as you said I should.
seewhy9, thank you very much. I do not mean we should forget what happened. I do think there is something to do about, say, what happened on 6.4.89, and so on. But, hatred would ruin our own life. By the way, I helped that person by pretending on having found nothing about his wife's background during "Cleaning Jiaji Duiwu" after the cultural revolution without using hatred toward what he did to my father with the landlord issue (that person is also a family to me, but not so close). He was shocked (I should say) to thank me. I was a young assistant (they tried to persuade me into communist) to a person who was in charge. The person in charge did not say anything either because I did not say anything about the matter after we found something partially because my father was above that person in charge. That person I protected was very thankful to me since then. My family was not hurt too much because most people involved are also family members -only not too close and my father had too many friends at every level including one at the top level of the province (retired). We treated "enemy" as friends (most of them are indeed family members, say 5 to 10 generations away -- I am not sure).
About 6.4, I forgot ONE point why I said a little bit stronger on the beginning. I do not like some guys talking about 6.4 for USA's sake or act as somebody else's dog (I used dog there). Demonizing Chinese government is not what I like. Criticizing it, however harshly, is reasonable. I wrote in another place that the most important issue is to Jiushinengshi to figure out what to do to improve in order to make China even better (I love my birthland and I do not hate the government). Don't you agree? I feel deeply sorry for anybody who has suffered during 6.4 or anytime, but, AGAIN, hatred would only ruin our own life. Walk out from the hatred, being happy (not forgetting) makes your life better. Being DanDing about what is going on with Hu's visit. Life likes a drama; I am sorry but killing is inside the drama. I feel terribly bad even sometimes now when I watch some movie, but I do not choose to hate. I am trying to help as you said I should.
To answer all of your questions, I am more inclined 以直报怨 than 忌恶如仇. I do not like to hate. I can not afford hating. I am a serious scientist who is reading on this website for many years without saying anything until recently. This is the first time I somehow got into the mood to say so much. Perhaps I would not do this anymore because I do not want to get involved. I am interested but not interested in getting involved as Confucius said 君子不党 ( I do not claim that I am a 君子 at all, in case you misunderstand me -- I might try to be a 君子, but I am merely a pure scientist).
I have no reservation to agree with what you said. By "I do not care that much", I meant I do not talk about that killing with only hatred. I do not mean just go forward and forget about what happened. I mean we should discuss about the killing as a scholar and do not involve too much personal hatred. Therefore, we may do better. Also, by "I do not care that much", I meant "killing is a reality". My family member (very extended to more than hundreds, most of them still live there) killed each other because one side is communist and another side is Guoming Tang. Which side I am going take. I love each one of them. Say, the poorest uncle joined the communist and killed the richest uncle who was a Guoming Tang by the order of communist. Then, he was killed by whoever (I believe by those Guoming Tang's close family member, when I was a child) never being found out. It is not clear about moral standard or "legal foundation", at least it is very difficult to say anything about that because it was happened between two governments. I protected one person who married a wife from a "Rich Long" family, he was surprised to thank me during the cultural revolution. I do have a moral bottom line.
I can see that you are very reasonable, you realize that I am not those people you might call 5 mao or whatever, I am the one not involved in communist the most among 8 brothers because I did not like the politics or communist. But, with my almost whole life experiences with my communist brothers, I know them too well to say they are totally wrong. My old brother just retired a couple of years ago as a discipling secretary, he never really reach to the center of the government. He is very stubborn about communist, at least when he was young. He believe that and he suffered too by being forced out from a certain special army unit after someone told the army my family actually was a "Landlord" before we were reclassified to be PingLong (to be little merchant again, and Landlord again for a short while in the cultural revolution. I admit I am seeing the picture in a different way because my family did not get too much hurt during the long period. I am not better than any of you. If my father was killed by the communist, I might not be able to be neutral as I am now. I do not blame anybody if one hates communist, Guoming Tang, or whoever. My point is it may be better to be neutral to discuss what happened in order to make the society better. One more point, by what I said, I meant unfortunately sometimes the world is very ugly. That is the reality. No guarantee it would not happen one thousands years later or in USA (say 100 years later). It might be contrary to what you think, I perfectly accept and agree with you on everything you said. No any need to argue with you. This is the first time I joined a little discussion in this extent for some reason. I respect your attitude toward the issue.
The key point I tried to make is that how we making life better is more important. I suffered very much in USA and got involved something beyond you may imagine, I did not hate USA either and tried to compromise without losing my moral ground. That part, I do not have liberty to discuss here. I am going to write down for my children (they can publish in case if they want to only after my death). I can not tell them now, they would have trouble to hear the truth. I have to wait until they are still older. USA democracy and freedom is not better (I do not say it is worse) than any other government from my PERSONAL experience. Every system is cheating and corrupted. USA is much richer so that it is easy for many of you to see the darkness unless you get involved in certain level and areas. But, I can not afford to hate. I can not AFFORD (can you?). I fought very hard to hold my moral and whatever ground and succeeded eventually. You may believe this statement from everything I said before to trust that I am at least a serious and independent thinker. Thank you for having responded to my posting so directly. I do not think I am going to involve in the discussion too much more. I only tried to say something to you young guys from a different angle. I knew I am not one of you guys and I am almost sure I am older than you guys. I did not even participate 89 movement; but observed as an outsider. I would be happy if I help you to see the matter from another angle, right or wrong. I do not even want to claim I am the only with RIGHT idea. That is from my scientific research experiences. It is no harm to look the same thing from another angle, you may see something you never would see.
Best wishes to everybody who is serious and good luck to you guys. Using Buddhist's way, happiness for everybody and peace for the world!
I grew up in China, came to USA in 1989. I started to learn to speak English (I could read very well before then) at 40 years old. Now, some of my American people which state I was born in USA as foolish as you think that I grew up here in USA. My wife and son came to USA 3 month later in 1989 and she got another college education here in USA with the aid from the USA. I do agree with you the life is much harder in China. Many people suffered so much. But, we can only do something for the future not the past, can we?
(By the way, my family and neighborhood live better life because our ancestors left a very very big land to the whole village after 2 of them were killed by communist, who is also from an extended family. Rich or poor, communist or anti-communist, all of them are from the exact same ancestor who was a city officer in early Qing dynasty after an examination. Whom I am going to favor, one side or another, both sides are my family from the exact the same ancestor??? They killed each other! Whom I am going to blame? We have more than 500 people from the same ancestor in the area. Communists, Guomoing Tangs, Buddhists, everything. They are all my family. My family! I love every one of them, almost 1000 in an area. I call them uncles, granduncles, nephews, and whatever appropriate. How I could hate any of them. They are all my family. But, they killed each other (not too much though) because of politics. If Japenese did not burn almost the whole village, very few of my whole family from hundreds people are poor. They would be mostly middle class. We should hate Japs, should we? But, hatred would not help us. I even had to accept that fact Japs burned the whole village after one of my family members (very extended) killed a Jap because the Jap raped another family member. The whole family chose not to fight, and nobody was killed by Japs though. I wanted to hate, but hatred does not help me. I feel sorry for you to hate! That is why I said what I said. I am not planning to go back at all, my youngest son became a US citizen after he got a good offer from a 500 fortune company in US. He did not become a citizen even when I became a US citizen in case. But, nobody in my family here is going back to China at all. I am not planning to contact Chinese government either, I scolded a communist city level officer (a friend of my family and he is in the city's "people congress" now) with smile the last time I went back visiting China a couple of years ago when he tried to introduce me to the Mayor. His friends laughed back to suggest continuing drinking with me. That officer did not say much after he was openly shamed by me with smile. It was funny.
I think better to tell you a little more. My father gave up everything from his uncle (my grandfather died young from something), who did not have any children and raised my father as the only child as a big landlord and merchant in a town nearby to go back to the village living in a cottage after he joined the communist party a while before 1949 since his uncle's workers joined the communist party. I was born in a cottage and my parent was going to be beggars before the local communist party secretary asked my father to stay and to help him by becoming a lower level officer. The second level local government finally decided to allow my family to still inherit a little bit from my father's uncle to build a little house in 1957 I was born. We finally became "little merchant" instead of being a "Landlord" my old brother joined the communist party too and eventually became a city level discipline secretary. I never touched politics because of my experience at 10 years old. One of my young brother is an academic city college officer now and communist. I am a pure scientist. The big reason for my family in doing well is our ancestors including my father's uncle had a very very big land to give to our whole neighborhood (later give to an even bigger neighborhood in 1973 or so). Two biggest landlords (one of them was a very good teacher, both of them were from my extended family but not very close to us) were killed by communist government and the local communist secretary was killed (he is a little bit more close to my family than those two landlords) by whoever with the case never solved (I believe it was those two landlords' close family) and my father had to help that secretary's son to get a job later on. The key reason was that my family gave up a big fortune before the communist took it since my father had many people inside communist before 1949 and joined them and happily live a poor life before land reform. Well, we became "landlord" again during the cultural revolution but without big suffer since my family suffered already before. For your information, I suffered the most, I was born not so well because of poorness, I was beaten by the neighborhood kids when I was 10 years old. I DO NOT blame killing because that is the reality. I am not saying it is good. I am saying it is okay not to hate and accept what happened so that we can move on a better life. Enjoy the life, work hard, and hope the best for your life. I could not be always smiling like my father, but I really really inherited from my father to be optimistic and happy whatever happens. Life is hard, is it not? I wish everybody have a better life from a Buddhist's point of view. I am not a Buddhist either. I learn Christian, Buddhism, communism, and everything. I wish no war, no killing in this world. But, I have to be realistic! I wish the best, I accept the worst, I do everything (however terribly hard beyond you can image) to earn for my family. Are you willing to do so? I did the same in USA and I obtain something beyond I tried to get. BEYOND! Why should I say anything for the communist? I do not even agree with my brothers becoming communists. I earned better than they got from China. Why I favor communist? No, I only tried to offer an advice (if I would be qualified) to some young people (who think that I may be qualified) to be realistic about the tragedies in human life. I favor Buddhism over communism; but I do not see Buddhists can govern.
I wish everybody including you to have a happy life from my heart. I just came back from a Buddhist meeting today while refusing to be a Buddhist. Why, I do not like to be a member of any political party or religion. I study New-confuciousness (not neo- confuciousness in Song dynasty) because somebody on this website says he wanted to establish a new confiuciounism for the Chinese people. (Oh, confuciousness is correct, other minor typos I can not care too much.) But, I am a scientist who is only interested in everything including politics without involving politics. How about that?
Have a happy life. (NO MORE TO SAY, I have said already beyond I would say. Only today.)
I think I might understand history much much better than somebody (I do not know about you). That is why I said what I said. My family suffered some, I was beaten by many kids when I was 10 years old. But, I DO NOT BLAME THAT to Chinese government, I realize that was because of human nature. It is not good, is it? I was 10 years old, my father was out of office, and then I was beaten by kids from neighborhood. We learned from that, no fighting, no begging, but working hard. My father got back to office about 2 years later after he did something without any title or benefit. My mother was against what my father was doing. But, my father readily accept whatever happened. He keeps working hard and always smile to us -- a big family with 8 children. I determined to work hard to get something better than everybody. I did then and now. Five of my 7 brothers have a college education, perhaps because our village was (not is) a little rich than neighborhood from a big land from our ancestors. It was taken again in cultural revolution to give to the neighborhood and we became poor. But, I insisted my young brothers going to school and helped them financially and academically. My youngest brother quit school because of money issue and went back to school after I came to USA. I paid partially his education from my scholarship and he got a 3 years high school plus 3 years college and now working for a bank. He complained once to me but told me that life is much better than he would be sweeping on the street if he did not go back to high school.
I have told you a little bit about history and a little bit about my family. That told you at least a little bit why I said what I said. Do I have to say more? I am willing to tell you anything, but, I do not have too much time to waste on this website. My "friend (seewy3 if I may)"! Be realistic! Of course, it is perfect if you want to be a politician and wish to bleed for building a better China. If you do not wish to go to prison or bleed, you can still SAY something to build a better China. Only, I do not think complaining or being sarcastic would help much. Tell me I am wrong. But, I said enough for you because I have a little bit time today. No more is needed to say because I do not want to waste time here, you would forgive me for that reason.
I only mean to remind you to be realistic as I am in a good mood today and have some time to spend.
The world is not perfect, human nature makes the world very ugly sometimes. It is okay! OKAY? You might be too young to understand this, in case you do not know anything in history. Killing will be in this world forever. FOREVER! It is not a big issue. Living a better life is what you need to think about more. Not to blame whichever government, Chinese or USA.
USA treats me very well because I work hard (not because I am a dog of some politicians) and am willing to sacrifice something to earn what I should obtain, I do not have any reason to please Chinese government. My whole family is doing very well in USA. If you do well in USA,why do you have to cry out to blame Chinese government? Be successful and happy in USA and hope China does even better! You do not have to take my advice, but, it is your life (not mine) on the stake. It is okay you say whatever you want even "down with communist party", if saying that would help you in your life. I never joined any political party or movement. I was in Beijing before and after June 4 for personal reasons.
Be realistic, get a better life for yourself. Young guys! I am older than Liu Xiaobo. I admire him. But, he has to be in prison because he is now. Not because I like to see him in prison. He is in prison because right now he loses. He might win later (only might, not much chance); so you can go that direction. If you want to be like him, I admire your courage. Go back to China to overthrow Chinese government!
But, be realistic -- if you try to get a better life. I did not get a penny from Chinese government when I came to USA in 1989 with a full scholarship from USA, but I had to struggle very hard after that. I made it after 20 years of struggling and get something more than I expected. One of my even older friends got a professorship at the age of 60 a few year ago. If you are 40 years old, you may still try to do that, can you? Perhaps you are not capable to do that. If so, that explains why you are talking POLITICS like that. POLITICS = BLOOD. If you do not wish to sacrifice, do not talk about politics.
Well? Be realistic. Take my advice for your sake, not for anybody else. I am happy if you cry "down with Communist", it is okay whatever you say. But, it might not be a good idea for yourself to waste too much energy to blame around instead of working hard to earn something for your family (or if you have a family). I have disliked politics since I was 10 years old, I chose a science career because of that. So, you understand a little bit as I do think you are smart people???
USA, or Bush Government invaded Iraqi and killed at least a half million civilian there. But, as a USA citizen, I do not really care. I care about the human right there. But, I do not really care, because that is the human nature. Every now and then killing is there (I do not mean the killing everyday on the street of USA !!!). You have your personal reason to hate China's government. But, take it for real. Do not be a dog of USA to say that to your own people. Say that only for your hatred of Chinese Government! Do not use Chinese People's name either. I was one of them. My big family is still there. Some of them are okay enough, a few of them are not very good. But, they do not blame the government. Get in real, sir (I intended in using sir not Sir).
Say that whoever killed your family member. Say that whoever took your property 50 years ago. Do not say Chinese Government is bad (than USA government) because they killed some people on June 4. I was there in the middle. I was there on June 10th (you were not there?) again. It is okay to kill some people who tried to overthrow the government, even though the government may be on the wrong side. If you want to fight, another side of course can fight back. It does not matter who is right, it does matters only who won. If you can won, or if you can ask people to follow you to win the control over China, you are my hero, even if you a dog of USA. I do not even know you would be better than Chinese government if you would have any chance to govern. But, if you lose, get for real. Find a job in USA and live your life. Do not be a loser's politician. By the way, I have no reason to mean you can not bad mouth about China. It is your choice. What I am trying to say is that it is better for you to live your life and do not say something out of hatred. My family was a (landlord and little merchant) DIZHU and XiaoShang. We do not hate the government. Hating will only harm yourself. Find a better way to live in USA and perhaps better (in my opinion) not being a dog of USA.