狼来啦！川普的国策顾问斯宾塞：最终目标在未来的某个时间是建立一个纯粹白种人的国家。
编者按：在多伦多和温哥华散发反华传单的就是这个反动组织：Alt-Right， 我们华人需要组织起来，建立一个我们华人的政党来反对之。
我们要团结一切可以的力量，包括川普的支持者我辱骂过川普支持者，在这里我正式表示道歉，他们都是我们的同胞。 请注意这个组织，Alt-Right，知彼知己，百战不殆。 http://www.npr.org/2016/11/17/502476139/were-not-going-away-alt-right-leader-on-voice-in-trump-administration
(续) 斯宾塞：我最终想要的的理想:对欧洲人有效的安全空间。 这是一个大帝国，将接受所有欧洲人。 这将是一个如此美好的的地方：对于德国人、斯拉夫人、凯尔特人。 这将是一个白种美国人的地方。 SPENCER: What I would ultimately want is this ideal of a safe space effectively for Europeans. This is a big empire that would accept all Europeans. It would be a place for Germans. It would be a place for Slavs. It would be a place for Celts. It would be a place for white Americans and so on. 对于这样的事情，真正让欧洲人在我们将要经历的这个困难的世纪中生存和繁荣，我们必须有一种意识的感觉。 我们必须有这种认同感。 For something like that to happen and really for Europeans to survive and thrive in this very difficult century that we're going to be experiencing, we have to have a sense of consciousness. We're going to have to have that sense of identity. MCEVERS：未来，应该只有白人欧洲人被认为是美国公民吗？ MCEVERS: Going forward, should only white European people be considered U.S. citizens? SPENCER：好吧，不，我的意思是美国的公民 – 好象是这不是可以立即改变的东西。 所以我的意思是，我认为我们需要区分身份和公民身份。 SPENCER: Well, no, I mean the citizenship of the United States - like, this is not something that can be changed right away. So I mean I think we need to differentiate identity and citizenship. MCEVERS：所以在你的想法，比如，有一个美国，不同的人仍然有公民身份，但他们生活在单独的飞地（译注：有色人种，应该生活在如印第安人的保留地中）; 他们生活在彼此分开的地方。 MCEVERS: So in your idea, like, there's a United States of America where different people still have citizenship but they're living in separate enclaves; they're living in places where they are kept separate from one another. 斯宾塞：我说的是欧洲人定义了美国。 他们定义了它是什么； 当然欧洲人也会定义：非欧洲人在这里，谁是公民等等。 我会... SPENCER: What I'm saying is that Europeans defined America. They defined what it is. Of course there are people who are non-European who are here, who are citizens and so on. What I would... MCEVERS：许多其他的人也会争辩,来定义美国。 MCEVERS: Who many would argue also defined America. SPENCER：当然，他们在一定程度上也会。 但是欧洲人民是不可或缺的中央人民，在社会和政治，文化和人口方面明确界定了这个国家。
我更关心我们自己， 这就是我说的。 但我尊重其他种族的身份。 而我实际上可以看他们的眼睛一种方式，而其他的保守主义者不能。 SPENCER: Sure, and they did to a certain degree. But European people were the indispensable central people that defined this nation socially and politically and culturally and demographically obviously. I care about us more. That's all I'm saying. But I respect identitarians of other races. And I actually can see eye to eye with them in a way that your average conservative can't. MCEVERS：可你也相信，不同种族的人本质上不会和平相处。 是不是不对？ MCEVERS: But you also believe that people of different races inherently do not get along. Isn't that right? SPENCER：世界历史如此认为（笑）。 我的意思是 - 这不只是我的意见。 我没有看到很多反例（译注：SPENCER认为， 从历史上看，不同种族的人从来也没有和平相处过）。 SPENCER: I think world history believes that (laughter). I mean I don't - it's not just my opinion. I don't see very many counterexamples. MCEVERS：所以你乘坐地铁在纽约市。 你坐在地铁车上，你在看着来自世界各地的人。 人们没有互殴， 没有人刺伤别人。 每个人都在生活，去上班，你知道吗？ 你不认为，这是一种人们在一起的正常方式吗？ MCEVERS: So you ride the subway in New York City. And you're sitting in a subway car, and you're looking at people from all over everywhere. And nobody's punching each other. Nobody's stabbing anyone. Everyone's going about their life, going to work, you know? You don't see that as, like, a way where people are getting along? SPENCER：我们真的很喜欢对方吗？ 我们真的相爱吗？在那个地铁车厢里，我们真有同一社区的感觉吗？ 我看到的是很多... SPENCER: Do we really like each other? Do we really love each other? Do we really have a sense of community in that subway car? What I see are a lot of... MCEVERS：或者是一个死胡同，或者在幼儿园。 MCEVERS: Or a cul-de-sac or in kindergarten. SPENCER：每当许多不同的种族在同一所学校，在午餐时间会发生什么？在PE，在课余时间玩的时候会有一个自然的隔离状态。 SPENCER: Whenever many different races are in the same school, what will happen is that there'll be a natural segregation at lunchtime, at PE, at - in terms of after-school play. MCEVERS：理查德斯宾塞的观点显然不容易被听到，但我们认为他们很重要，因为“alt-right”和唐纳德·特朗普的团队之间的联系。 我问理查德斯宾塞他正在推动什么政策 - 自然保守主义，他说。一种对俄罗斯和这更友好的外交政策。 MCEVERS: Richard Spencer's views are obviously not easy to hear, but we do think they're important to hear because of the link between the alt-right and Donald Trump's team. I asked Richard Spencer what policies he's pushing for - natural conservation, he said, a foreign policy that's friendlier to Russia and this. SPENCER：移民 -- 是最明显的一个例子。 我认为我们需要超越 ---- 从非法移民的角度考虑移民问题。合法移民 --- 比非法移民更加具有破坏性，他们在这里留下来， 他们的孩子出生在这里， 还有更多的… SPENCER: Immigration is the most obvious one. And I think we need to get beyond thinking about immigration just in terms of illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is not nearly as damaging as legal immigration. Legal immigration - they're here to stay. Their children are here and so on. 我认为一个非常合理的，我认为合理的政策建议是对唐纳德·特朗普说，看！ 我们过去有许多移民，他们带来了一些“碎片”。 它带来了分裂。 但我们需要再次成为一个单一民族。 为了我们自己，我们需要止息大规模的移民。 我们需要优先考虑适合的人，他们更喜欢我们--- 这就是欧洲移民。 And I think a really reasonable and I think palatable policy proposal would be for Donald Trump to say, look; we've had immigration in the past. It's brought some fragmentation. It's brought division. But we need to become a people again. And for us to do that, we're going to need to take a break from mass immigration. And we're going to need to preference people who are going to fit in, who are more like us. That is European immigration. MCEVERS：你认为一些你想看到的政策，会实现的的可能性有多大？ MCEVERS: You know, how likely do you think it is that some of these policies that you want to see happen will happen? SPENCER：我想要的是影响力。 有时影响是不可见的。 如果我们能够得到这些想法，如果人们看到他们强大的自然推动力，我认为我们真的可以改变政策。 SPENCER: What I want is influence. And sometimes influence can be invisible. If we can get these ideas out there, if people can see the compelling and powerful nature of them, I think we really can change policy. MCEVERS：下面我只想列出一些事情， 你告诉我他们是好还是不好。 MCEVERS: I just want to go down a list of things. And you tell me if they are OK or not OK. SPENCER: OK. MCEVERS：(Graffiti)墙上的涂鸦者说：使美国再次变为白种人天下。 MCEVERS: Graffiti that says make America white again. SPENCER：我不这么看 – 瞧！ 涂鸦是非法的，但... SPENCER: I don't - look; graffiti is illegal, but... MCEVERS：标语说：使美国再次变白。 MCEVERS: The slogan make America white again. SPENCER: I don't have a huge problem with that I mean that people... SPENCER：对此，我没有什么巨大的疑问，我的意思是这些人... 只是表达了他们的意见而已。 MCEVERS: OK. SPENCER: ...Are just expressing their opinion. MCEVERS: Swastikas. SPENCER: A swastika is an ancient symbol. I don't - like, you know, if you're asking me, do I have a problem with people expressing themselves and maybe, you know... MCEVERS: 用纳粹万字符表达的意见. MCEVERS: With a swastika. SPENCER：人们仅仅是表达了自己而已。 他们可以做任何他们想要做的。 SPENCER: People want to express themselves. They can do whatever they want. MCEVERS：另一个也OK吗 - 穿着白色的长袍或烟罩三角帽：KKK。 MCEVERS: So that's an OK - wearing white robes or hoods like the KKK. SPENCER：看。 我是 -我不会谴责任何这些，因为你没有事实证明，说这是非法或不道德的。 我可能不同意一些人的意见， 我可能不喜欢这个， 我可以喜欢，或不喜欢。 但事实是这些仅仅是人们表达自己。 我不会谴责任何这样的事。 SPENCER: Look. I'm - you're not going to get me to condemn any of this because you haven't said anything that is really fundamentally illegal or immoral. I might not agree with some people. I might not like this. I might like that, not like that. But the fact is these are people expressing themselves. I'm not going to condemn any of that. MCEVERS：你同意他们表达的意见？ MCEVERS: Do you agree with those expressions? SPENCER：我同意他们，作为欧洲人的身份。 这可以采取多种不同的形式。 我不支持任何种类的人身威胁，或任何类似的东西。 我认为这是越线。 但是在人们谈到他们是什么人，我并不反对。 我实际上会尊重 - 非常尊重非白人的权利--试图了解和表达他们非白人自己，因为他们认为自己合适于此。 SPENCER: I agree with people who want to get in touch with their identity as a European. That can take a number of different forms. I don't support any kind of physical threats or anything like that. I think that does cross the line. But in terms of people coming to terms with who they are, I don't oppose it. And I actually would respect - deeply respect the right of non-white people to try to understand themselves and to express themselves as they see fit. MCEVERS：特别的：共和党人呢？ (待续) |
