设万维读者为首页 万维读者网 -- 全球华人的精神家园 广告服务 联系我们 关于万维
 
首  页 新  闻 视  频 博  客 论  坛 分类广告 购  物
搜索>> 发表日志 控制面板 个人相册 给我留言
帮助 退出
寡人的博客  
Good company and good discourse are the very sinews of virtue  
https://blog.creaders.net/u/7393/ > 复制 > 收藏本页
网络日志正文
黄亚生:中国 vs 印度:到底谁更腐败? 2014-02-06 09:51:38

编者按:最近有关比较中国印度的文章不少,正巧去年看过黄教授的这篇博文,就把它贴上来,与大家分享,并恭祝各位朋友马年吉祥。黄亚生毕业于哈佛大学,获学士及博士学位,现为麻省理工斯隆管理学院的经济学教授。较之许多中国国内的学者,黄亚生视野更开阔,观察更深邃,是我比较喜爱的一位思考者。文章较长,需要有点耐心。

另外,印度人现在成了一些国际大公司的高管,希望大家不要悲伤失落,但也不能讳疾忌医,回避问题。我看这万维的一些分析文章大多存在这样的倾向。作为在中国传统文化及中共反人性的意识形态双重浸淫下长大的第一代移民,要是能在海外登顶,那才是咄咄怪事!英语差也是不可否认的另一重要原因。要想成为高管,英语能力仅能进行技术性沟通是远远不够的,不知大家同意不同意?一招鲜,吃遍天的想法是要不得的,除非你是公司的创始人。

Why democracy still wins: A
critique of Eric X. Li’s “A tale of two political systems”


July 1, 2013 at 12:12 pm EST

By Yasheng Huang

Earlier this year, economist Yasheng Huang (watch his 2011 TED Talk) sparred with Eric X. Li in the pages of Foreign Affairs on a similar topic to today’s TED Talk. The TED Blog asked Huang to expand on his argument in his ongoing conversation with Li.

Imagine confusing the following two statements from a cancer doctor: 1) “You may die from cancer” and 2) “I want you to die from cancer.” It is not hard to see a rudimentary difference between these two statements. The first statement is a prediction — it is saying that something may happen given certain conditions (in this case death conditional upon having cancer). The second statement is a preference, a desire, or a wish for a world to one’s particular liking.

Who would make such a rudimentary mistake confusing these two types of statements? Many people, including Eric X. Li, in today’s TED Talk. The Marxian meta-narrative drilled into Li’s head — and mine in my childhood and youth in the 1960s and 1970s — is a normative statement. When Marx came up with his ideas about evolution of human societies, there was not a single country in the world that even remotely resembled the communist system he advocated. The communist system Marx had in mind had no private property or of ownership of any kind. Money was also absent in that system. The Marxian version of communism has never come to fruition and, most likely, never will. Marx based his “prediction” on deduction; his successors did so by imposing their wish, enforced by power and violence.

Eric X. Li: A tale of two political systems

By contrast, the narrative that was apparently fed to Li when he was a “Berkeley hippie” is based on the actual experience of human affairs. We have had hundreds of years of experience with democracy and hundreds of countries/years of democratic transitions and rule. The statement that countries transition to democracy as they get rich is a positive statement — it is a prediction based on data. In the 1960s, roughly 25 percent of the world was democratic; today the proportion is 63 percent . There are far more instances of dictatorships transitioning to democracies than the other way around. The rest of the world has clearly expressed a preference for democracy. As Minxin Pei has pointed out, of the 25 countries with a higher GDP per capita than China that are not free or partially free, 21 of them are sustained by natural resources. But these are exceptions that prove the rule — countries become democratic as they getricher. Today not a single country classified as the richest is a single-party authoritarian system. (Singapore is arguably a borderline case.) Whether Li likes it or not, they all seem to end up in the same place.

Are democracies more corrupt? Li thinks so. He cites the Transparency International (TI) index to support his view. The TI data show that China is ranked better than many democracies. Fair enough.

I have always thought that there is a touch of irony with using transparency data to defend a political system built on opacity. Irony aside, let’s keep in mind that TI index itself is a product of a political system that Li so disparages — democracy (German democracy to be exact). This underscores a basic point — we know far more about corruption in democracies than we do about corruption in authoritarian countries because democracies are, by definition, more transparent and they have more transparency data. While I trust comparisons of corruption among democratic countries, to mechanically compare corruption in China with that in democracies, as Li has done so repeatedly, is fundamentally flawed. His methodology confounds two effects — how transparent a country is and how corrupt a country is. I am not saying that democracies are necessarily cleaner than China; I am just saying that Li’s use of TI data is not the basis for drawing conclusions in either direction. The right way to reach a conclusion on this issue is to say that given the same level of transparency (and the same level of many other things, including income), China is — or is not — more corrupt than democracies.
 
Yasheng
Huang: Does democracy stifle economic growth?

A simple example will suffice to illustrate this idea. In 2010, two Indian entrepreneurs founded a website called I Paid a Bribe. The website invited anonymous postings of instances in which Indian citizens had to pay a bribe. By August 2012 the website has recorded more than 20,000 reports of corruption.
Some Chinese entrepreneurs tried to do the same thing: They created I Made a Bribe and 522phone.com. But those websites were promptly shut down by the Chinese government. The right conclusion is not, as the logic of Li would suggest, that China is cleaner than India because it has zero postings of corrupt instances whereas India has some 20,000 posted instances of corruption.

With due respect to the good work at Transparency International, its data are very poor at handling this basic difference between perception of corruption and incidence of corruption. Democracies are more transparent —about its virtues and its vices — than authoritarian systems. We know far more about Indian corruption in part because the Indian system is more transparent, and it has a noisy chattering class who are not afraid to challenge and criticize the government (and, in a few instances, to stick a video camera into a hotel room recording the transfer of cash to politicians). Also lower-level corruption is more observable than corruption at the top of the political hierarchy. The TI index is better at uncovering the corruption of a Barun the policeman in Chennai than a Bo Xilai the Politburo member from Chongqing. These factors, not corruption per se, are likely to explain most of the discrepancies between China and India in terms of TI rankings.

Li likes to point out, again using TI data, that the likes of Indonesia, Argentina and the Philippines are both democracies and notoriously corrupt. He often omits crucial factual details when he is addressing this issue. Yes, these countries are democracies, in 2013, but they were governed by ruthless military dictators for decades long before they transitioned to democracy. It was the autocracy of these countries that bred and fermented corruption. (Remember the 3,000 pairs of shoes of Mrs. Marcos?) Corruption is like cancer, metastatic and entrenched. While it is perfectly legitimate to criticize new democracies for not rooting out corruption in a timely fashion, confusing the difficulties of treating the entrenched corruption with its underlying cause is analogous to saying that a cancer patient got his cancer after he was admitted for chemotherapy.

The world league of the most egregious corruption offenders belongs exclusively to autocrats. The top three ruling looters as of 2004, according to a TI report, are Suharto, Marcos and Mobutu. These three dictators pillaged a combined $50 billion from their impoverished people. Democracies are certainly not immune to corruption, but I think that they have to work a lot harder before they can catch up with these autocrats. Li has a lot of faith in the Chinese system. He first argues that the system enjoys widespread support among the Chinese population. He cites a Financial Times survey that 93 percent of Chinese young people are optimistic about their future. I have seen these high approval ratings used by Li and others as evidence that the Chinese system is healthy and robust, but I am puzzled why Li should stop at 93 percent. Why not go further, to 100 percent ? In a country without free speech, asking people to directly evaluate performance of leaders is like asking people to take a single-choice exam. The poll numbers for Erich Honecker and Kim Jong-un would put Chinese leaders to shame. (Let me also offer a cautionary footnote on how and how not to use Chinese survey data. I have done a lot of survey research in China, and I am always humbled by how tricky it is to interpret the survey findings. Apart from the political pressures that tend to channel answers in a particular direction, another problem is that Chinese respondents sometimes view taking a survey as similar to taking an exam.
Chinese exams have standard answers, and sometimes Chinese respondents fill out surveys by trying to guess what the “standard” answer is rather than expressing their own views. I would caution against any naïve uses of Chinese survey data.)

Li also touts the adaptability of the Chinese political system. Let me quote:

“Now, most political scientists will tell us that a one-party system is inherently incapable of self-correction. It won’t last long because it cannot adapt. Now here are the facts. In 64 years of running the largest country in the world, the range of the party’s policies has been wider than any other country in recent memory, from radical land collectivization to the Great Leap Forward, then privatization of farmland, then the Cultural Revolution, then Deng Xiaoping’s market reform, then successor Jiang Zemin took the giant political step of opening up party membership to private businesspeople, something unimaginable during Mao’s rule. So the party self-corrects in rather dramatic fashion.”

Now imagine putting forward the following narrative celebrating, say, Russian “adaptability”: Russia, as a country or as a people, is highly adaptable. The range of its “policies has been wider than any other country in recent memory,” from gulags to Stalin’s red terror, then collectivization, then central planning, then glasnost and perestroika, then privatization, then crony capitalism, then the illiberal democracy under Putin, something unimaginable during Lenin’s rule. So the country “self-corrects in rather dramatic fashion.”

Let me be clear and explicit — Li’s reasoning on the adaptability of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is exactly identical to the one I offered on Russia. The only difference is that Li was referring to a political organization — the CCP — and I am referring to a sovereign state. The TED audience greeted Li’s speech with applause — several times in fact. I doubt that had Li offered this Russian analogy the reception would have been as warm. The reason is simple: The TED audience is intimately familiar with the tumult, violence and astronomical human toll of the Soviet rule. Steven Pinker, in his book The Better Angels of Our Nature, quoted the findings by other scholars that the Soviet regime killed 62 million of its own citizens. I guess the word “correction” somewhat understates the magnitude of the transformation from Stalin’s murderous, genocidal regime to the problematic, struggling but nonetheless democratic Russia today.

I do not know what a Berkeley hippie learned from his education, but in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where I received my education and where I am a professor by profession, I learned — and teach — every day that words actually have meaning. To me, self-correction implies at least two things. First, a self-correction is, well, a correction by self. Yes, Mao’s policies were “corrected” or even reversed by his successors, as Li pointed out, but in what sense is this “a self-correction?” Mao’s utterly disastrous policies persisted during his waning days even while the chairman lay in a vegetative state and his successor — who came to power through a virtual coup — only dared to modify Mao’s policies after his physical expiration was certain. If this is an instance of self-correction, exactly what is not a self-correction? Almost every single policy change Li identified in his talk was made by the successor to the person who initiated the policy that got corrected. (In quite a few cases, not even by the immediate successor.) This is a bizarre definition of self-correction. Does it constitute a self-correction when the math errors I left uncorrected in my childhood are now being corrected by my children?

The second meaning of self-correction has to do with the circumstances in which the correction occurs, not just the identity of the person making the correction. A 10-year-old can correct her spelling or math error on her own volition, or she could have done so after her teacher registered a few harsh slaps on the back of her left hand. In both situations the identity of the corrector is the same — the 10-year-old student — but the circumstances of the correction are vastly different. One would normally associate the first situation with “self-correction,” the second situation with coercion, duress or, as in this case, violence. In other words, self-correction implies a degree of voluntariness on the part of the person making the correction, not forced or coerced, not out of lack of alternatives other than making the correction. The element of choice is a vital component of the definition of self-correction.

Let me supply a few missing details to those who applauded Li’s characterization of 64 years of China’s one-party system as one of serial self-corrections. Between 1949 and 2012, there have been six top leaders of the CCP. Of these six, two were abruptly and unceremoniously forced out of power (and one of the two was dismissed without any due process even according to CCP’s own procedures). A third leader fell from power and was put under house arrest for 15 years until his death. That is 3 strikes out of 6 who did not exit power on their intended terms. Two of Mao’s anointed successors died on the job, one in a fiery plane crash when he tried to escape to the Soviet Union and the other tortured to death and buried with a fake name. Oh, did I mention that 30 million people were estimated to have died from Mao’s disastrous Great Leap Forward, and probably millions of people died from the violence of the Cultural Revolution? Also, do you know that Mao not only persisted in but accelerated his Great Leap Forward policies after the evidence of the extent of famine became crystal-clear?

Li calls the policy changes after these wrenching tumults “self-corrections.” His reasoning is that an entity
called the CCP, but not anybody else, introduced these policy changes. First of all, doesn’t that have something to do with the fact that nobody else was allowed a chance to make those policy changes? Secondly, this fixation on who made the policy changes rather than on the circumstances under which the policy changes were made is surely problematic. Let’s extend Li’s logic a little bit further. Shall we rephrase the American Independence Movement as a self-correction by the British? Or maybe the ceding of the British imperial authority over India as another British self-correcting act? Shall we re-label the Japanese surrender to end the Second World War a self-correction by the Japanese? Yes, there were two atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all of that, but didn’t the representatives of Emperor Hirohito sign the Japanese Instrument of Surrender on the battleship of USS Missouri?

To a hammer, everything is a nail. Li sees ills of democracies everywhere — financial crises in Europe and the United States, money politics and corruption. I readily agree that money politics in America is a huge problem and that it is indeed making the system utterly dysfunctional. But let’s be very clear about exactly how and why money politics is dysfunctional. It is dysfunctional precisely because it is fundamentally antithetical to democracy. Money politics is a perversion of democracy. It undermines and invalidates a canonical pillar of democracy — one person, one vote. To be logically consistent, Li should celebrate money politics because it is moving the United States in the direction of the authoritarian way of politics that he is so enamored of.

This may be a shocking revelation to Li, but US and European democracies did not patent financial crisis. Many authoritarian regimes experienced catastrophic financial and economic crises. Think of Indonesia in 1997 and the multiple junta regimes in Latin America in the 1970s and the 1980s. The only authoritarian regimes that go without suffering an explicit financial crisis are centrally planned economies, such as Romania and East Germany. But this is entirely because they failed to meet a minimum condition for having a financial crisis — having a financial system. The consequences for this defect are well-known — in lieu of sharp cyclical ups and downs, these countries produced long-term economic stagnations. A venture capitalist would not fare well in that system.

Li claims that he has studied the ability of democracies to deliver performance. At least in his talk, the evidence that he has done so is not compelling. There is no evidence that countries pay an economic price for being democratic. (It is also important to note that there is no compelling global evidence that democracies necessarily outperform autocracies in economic growth either. Some do and some do not. The conclusion is case by case.) But in the areas of public services, the evidence is in favor of democracies. Two academics, David Lake and Matthew Baum, show that democracies are superior to authoritarian countries in providing public services, such as health and education. Not just established democracies do a better job; countries that transitioned to democracies experienced an immediate improvement in the provision of these public services, and countries that reverted back to authoritarianism typically suffered a setback.

Li blames low growth in Europe and in the United States on democracy. I can understand why he has this view, because this is a common mistake often made by casual observers — China is growing at 8 or 9 percent and the US is growing at 1 or 2 percent . He is mistaking a mathematical effect of lower growth due to high base with a political effect of democracies suppressing growth. Because democratic countries are typically richer and have much higher per-capita GDP, it is much harder for them to grow at the same rate as poor — and authoritarian —countries with a lower level of per-capita GDP. Let me provide an analogy. A 15-year-old boy is probably more likely to go to see a movie or hang out with his friends on his own than a 10-year-old because he is older and more mature. It is also likely that he will not grow as fast as a 10-year-old because he is nearer to the plateau of human height. It would be foolish to claim, as Li’s logic basically did, that the 15-year-old is growing more slowly because he is going to movies on his own.

 

Li is very clear that he dislikes democracy, more than about the reasons why he dislikes democracy. Li rejects democracy on cultural grounds. In his speech, he asserts that democracy is an alien concept for Chinese culture. This view is almost amusing if not for its consequential implications. Last time I checked, venture capital is a foreign concept but that apparently has not stopped Li from practicing and prospering from it. (And I presume “Eric” to be foreign in origin? I may be wrong on this.) Conversely, would Li insist on adhering to every and each precept of Chinese culture and tradition? Would Li object to abolishing the practice of bound feet of Chinese women?

 

The simple fact is that the Chinese have accepted many foreign concepts and practices already. (Just a reminder: Marxism to the Chinese is as Western as Adam Smith.) It is a perfectly legitimate debate about which foreign ideas and practices China ought to accept, adopt or adapt, but this debate is about which ideas China should adopt, not whether China should adopt any foreign ideas and practices at all.

If the issue is about which ideas or which practices to adopt or reject, then, unlike Li, I do not feel confident enough to know exactly which foreign ideas and practices 1.3 billion Chinese people want to embrace or want to reject. A cultural argument against democracy does not logically lead to making democracy unavailable to the Chinese but to a course of actions for the Chinese people themselves to decide on the merits or the demerits of democracy. Furthermore, if the Chinese themselves reject democracy on their own, isn’t it redundant to expend massive resources to fight and suppress democracy? Aren’t there better ways to spend this money?

So far this debate has not occurred in China, because having this debate in the first place requires some democracy. But it has occurred in other Chinese environments, and the outcome of those debates is that there is nothing fundamentally incompatible between Chinese culture and democracy. Hong Kong, although without an electoral democratic system, has press freedom and rule of law, and there is no evidence that the place has fallen into chaos and anarchy. Taiwan today has a vibrant democracy, and many mainland travelers to Taiwan often marvel that Taiwanese society is not only democratic but also far more adherent to Chinese traditions than mainland China. (I have always felt that those who believe that democracy and Chinese culture are incompatible are closet supporters of Taiwanese independence. They exclude Taiwanese as Chinese.)

Indeed Li himself has accepted quite a few political reforms that are normally considered as “Western.” NGOs
are okay and even some press freedom is okay. He also endorses some intra-party democracy. These are all sensible steps toward making the Chinese system more democratic than the Maoist system, and I am all for them. The difference is that I see freedom to vote and multi-party competition as natural and logical extensions of these initial reforms, whereas Li draws a sharp line in the sand between the political reforms that have already occurred and the potential political reforms that some of us have advocated. As much as I tried, I fail to see any differences in principle between these partial reforms and the more complete reforms encompassing democracy.

There is a very curious way Li objects to democracy: He objects to many of the mechanics of democracy. In particular, he has a thing against voting. But the problem is that voting is simply a way to implement the practice of democracy, and even Li endorses some democracy. For example, he favors intra-party democracy. Fine, I do too; but how do you implement intra-party democracy without voting? This is a bit like praising tennis as a sport but condemning the use of a racket to play it.

Li has not provided a coherent and logical argument for his positions on democracy. I suspect, although I do not have any direct evidence, that there is a simple modus operandi — endorsing reforms the CCP has endorsed and opposing reforms that CCP has opposed. This is fine as far as posturing goes but it is not a principled argument of anything. That said, I believe it is perfectly healthy and indeed essential to have a rigorous debate on democracy —but that debate ought to be based on data, facts, logic and reasoning. By this criterion, Li’s talk does not start that debate.

 

In this aspect, however, democracy and autocracy are not symmetrical. In a democracy, we can debate and challenge democracy and autocracy alike, as Li did when he put down George W. Bush (which I greatly enjoyed) and as I do here. But those in an autocracy can challenge democracy only. (Brezhnev, upon being informed that there were protesters shouting “Down with Reagan” in front of the White House and that the US government could not do anything to them, reportedly told Reagan, “There are people shouting ‘Down with Reagan’ on Red Square and I am not doing anything to them.”) I have no troubles with people challenging people in power and being skeptical about democracy. In fact, the ability to do so in a democracy is the very strength of democracy, and a vital source of human progress. Copernicus was Copernicus because he overturned, not because he re-created, Ptolemaic astronomy. But by the same criterion, I do have troubles with people who do not see the merit of extending the same freedom they have to those who currently do not have it.

Like Li, I do not like the messianic tone some have invoked to support democracy. I support democracy on pragmatic grounds. The single most important benefit of democracy is its ability to tame violence. In The Better Angels of Our Nature, Pinker provided these startling statistics: During the 20th century, totalitarian regimes were responsible for 138 million deaths, of which 110 million occurred in communist countries. Authoritarian regimes caused another 28 million deaths. Democracies killed 2 million, mainly in their colonies as well as with food blockades and civilian bombings during the wars. Democracies, as Pinker pointed out, have trouble even bringing themselves to execute serial murderers. Democracies, Pinker argued, have “a tangle of institutional restraints, so a leader can’t just mobilize armies and militias on a whim to fan out over the country and start killing massive numbers of citizens.”

Contrary to what he was apparently told when he was a Berkeley hippie, the idea of democracy is not that it leads to a nirvana but that it can help prevent a living hell. Democracy has many, many problems. This insurance function of democracy — of mitigating against disasters — is often forgotten or taken for granted, but it is the single most important reason why democracy is superior to every other political system so far invented by human beings. Maybe one day there will be a better system than democracy, but the Chinese political system, in Li’s rendition, is not one of them.

 

Yasheng Huang is a Professor
of Political Economy and International Management at the MIT Sloan School of
Management and is the Founder of both the China Lab and India Lab at MIT Sloan.
His writings have appeared in
The Guardian, Foreign
Policy, Forbes, and most
recently in
Foreign Affairs, where he tangled with Eric X. Li on a
similar topic
. In 2011, Huang spoke at TEDGlobal on
democracy and growth in China and India.


原文链接:

http://blog.ted.com/2013/07/01/why-democracy-still-wins-a-critique-of-eric-x-lis-a-tale-of-two-political-systems/

浏览(1874) (0) 评论(46)
发表评论
文章评论
作者:俺是凡平 留言时间:2014-02-13 05:05:53
嘎兄说得好!共识在心,不多言谢。俺到今天还没有来得及给嘎兄打声招呼,就在于此,呵呵。

正如寡人兄所言,

"但象我及凡平、嘎啦哈这样的“纯右”(纯粹的右派)却很难找到大块时间另外发文去驳斥他们的似是而非的论调(我不认为在他们的博文后跟评反驳是一种明智的做法),所以有时贴标签就变得非常tempting,这也是没有办法的办法,希望阿妞理解、宽恕。在中共强大的引力和压力下,万维能否守得住裤腰带,也很成问题。"

咱们但凡有点空,就写点吧,呵呵。

再祝各位好朋友好!
回复 | 0
作者:嘎拉哈 留言时间:2014-02-13 03:46:28
感谢沐岚和思羽妹妹的高度赞赏!非常抱歉没有能及时回复。这笔帐先欠着。俺唯一能偿还的,是将来写一些东西出来,让你们读了之后觉得确实是那么回事儿。这就够了。对凡平兄,寡人兄,还有老厄,俺就不多说了。总之一句话,人与人之间的共识,是不会很快就变味的。这是俺的自信所在。俺主张共识在心,不多言谢。俺主张以共识会友,而不是以友论共识。俺主张以观点来证实理性,而不是以口号来证实理性。就像华博那样,如果把百分之五十的精力都放在自吹理性,大谈理性上,就反而印证了他们的心虚和不理性。

思羽和沐岚的文学作品,俺很少拜读,所以该道歉的是俺。万维上喜欢搬弄是非的人不少,希望大家着眼于正事,千万不要被留言蜚语所迷惑。比如华山就是一个标准的胡同串子。他专门在意像什么导读了,论坛了,博客了,网管了之类的东西。在俺眼里,他根本就不是个男人。

俺最近要聊的话题实在是太多。比如,最近 Bill Nye 同 Ken Ham 有关进化论之争,俺觉得 Bill Nye 有点不到位。 还有东芜的妓女,西芜的左毛,还有中共推出的十二个价值观,俺咋看都像长了十二个头的哪吒,不伦不类。
回复 | 0
作者:华山 留言时间:2014-02-10 17:18:41
寡人也想学那位潇石,与华山比试正品废品。我真希望寡人是神马纯数学领域的高人极品,年薪二十万以上,比华山高,咱敬佩。要是十万以下的二流就不用再提了。

好了,这么长时间,也就这儿几位80 大于 94 的纯数学人士在坚持,或许干脆说 CPI 和什么道指,纳指都是不入流的统计出来骗人的,那么咱们就没什么好说的了。怪就怪梦客当初读颠倒了CPI,害得寡人们动用这么多精力来堵漏,辛苦你们了,诸位。
回复 | 0
作者:俺是凡平 留言时间:2014-02-10 12:57:54
呵呵呵,穆斯林人体炸弹,寡人兄对华三的定位非常形象!

华政委这白痴俺多数情况下也懒得和他一般见识,真正让俺感到恶心的倒是那几个一边在华博井冈山策划人体炸弹、一边在万维人模狗样的战废品。什么时候有空了,俺再写个骑驴文,骑骑那几个涂口红戴领带的战废品,呵呵。
回复 | 0
作者:思羽 留言时间:2014-02-10 08:01:28
谢谢寡人兄。华山为老不尊,就让他到处现吧,我不和他一般见识。
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-10 06:06:10
华山,你最好还是别再卖弄你的那点可怜兮兮的统计ABC,免得贻笑大方。真正数学好的往往去学纯数学,二流的去学统计、精算这些数学的边缘分支。也别再耍嘴皮子,这方面你也是手下败将。咱们还是来点真材实料吧:
External evaluations of Transparency International’s work(来自为透明国际提供资金的机构)
Recommendations (摘录前三条)
The main recommendations are:
1. TI has developed expertise in measuring prevalence and risks of corruption largely
through perception studies. Further research is needed building on these existing
tools, to measure corruption experiences directly. Furthermore, research on other
forms of corruption, particularly political corruption is now needed. Work in this area -
supported by unrestricted funding - would be cutting edge and TI-S is the most
qualified and well-placed agency to undertake it.
2. DFID needs to rebuild a stronger policy dialogue with TI-S that justifies the strategic
nature of core funding. Feedback on TI annual reviews should go beyond the logframe
results and address policy issues, challenges of measuring performance and
sustainability for example. DFID and TI-S should consider adopting a strategic
partnership agreement, along the lines of that already signed between TI-S and
Australian Agency for International Development, which would encourage greater policy
dialogue and a more mutually beneficial relationship.
3. Regarding representativeness and targeting, (i) greater effort should be placed on
working with and on the BRICS and other G20 countries, whether this be at country
level or at the Secretariat, (ii) gender needs to be addressed more effectively both
from an organisational point of view (Board, Council and Management) and from a
research and country engagement level, (iii) TI-S’s social media should broaden its
audience to include a more global and less western audience.
华山你只需睁大眼睛看看第一条和第三条,报告说对政治性腐败(这在中国恰恰是尤为猖獗)的研究是透明国际的一个盲点;在代表性及针对性方面,对金砖五国需做出更大努力(意味着现在透明国际做的还远远不够),这些是不是很像为中国度身定做的?这些建议与黄亚生所说的透明国际排名的局限性完全一致,黄在麻省理工分别建有中国实验室及印度实验室,你的那点三脚猫的统计常识恐怕在黄的实验室找份Labour工也够呛吧。但是,透明国际的工作如果真的按照建议的那样深入下去的话,它在中国的办公机构可能会关门大吉,就象当初赶走谷歌一样。
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-09 19:44:54
思羽新年好,见到你我忒忒忒高兴了。这华山被你一刺激,就说些不三不四、很掉价的话,希望别跟他一般见识。
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-09 19:43:55
凡平兄,对华山这样的战废品还是不要动气,他让我想起那些可怜的穆斯林人体炸弹,他对自己的角色定位也就是制造点噪音而已。
回复 | 0
作者:华山 留言时间:2014-02-09 13:18:17
哈喇子最近人气挺盛,还得到思羽女士的青睐,视为红颜知己,够喝两壶的了。

哈喇子承认印度腐败,或许比中国更盛。不需动用黄XX来打浆糊,这算是承认事实。但有一点,也是最重要的一点没有说明,或不敢说明,这就是拿什么来反腐败。翅膀说“民主制度可以反腐败”,寡人这篇动用印度,这个世界上最多人口的民主国家说明民主确实不错,还有那位兄长寡言花了不少精力论证印度中国腐败的本质不同,尽管都是搬石头砸自己的苦活,但毕竟逻辑上没问题,是在回答中国怎样反腐的问题。哈喇子下笔千言,离题万里。到底推出什么与众不同的制腐方案。是建立革命根据地打土豪分田地呢,还是在共匪大中城市发动“反腐败,反饥饿,要民主”的学生运动呢,就是步中共当年后尘,也应该给出个方案,给出个时间表,

至于什么支持不同政见,那是搞笑吧。当年大批左翼人士在万维,驴协的宗旨是千方百计地怂恿万维封杀他们,也算达到部分目的。今天所谓不同政见就是民教们内部的缠斗。当然万维目前中国人还没被赶尽杀绝,否则内战就要正式开打。
回复 | 0
作者:思羽 留言时间:2014-02-09 10:38:14
人懒英语又不灵光,还没看寡人兄转贴的好文,倒先把评论看完了。老嘎也在这里,给你拜年了,希望上次没有在凡平兄那里得罪了你。要说万维上总能说出令我击节叹赏的观点的,老嘎算第一人。下面这段话,是我一直想说,又没勇气说,也不知道怎么说的,谢谢你替我说出来了:

“看到不少博主责怪海外华人由于不能够像印度人那样抱团,因而吃了不少亏。俺的看法基本上是相反的。俺到觉得,海外华人的不抱团,在某种程度上,其实正是我们华人为数不多的优点之一呢。如果中华民族都具备了”不抱团“的特质,中国的民主就可以一步到位了,根本就用不着像印度这样,虽然已经穿上了民主的死档裤,仍然还需要像黄亚生出来声嘶力竭地给他们擦屁股。几乎所有俺看到的这类“呼吁华人抱团”的文章,还没有一篇是意识到或强调了对原则之顾及的。更有甚者,很多人的观点根本就是主张破坏社会公正原则。所谓印度人的抱团行为,很大程度上其实都是同民主社会的公平原则相冲突的。之所以印度裔相对华裔显得更成功一些,主要还是技术和语言等硬指标。比如,菲律宾裔比印度裔更要抱团的多,但是他们的整体地位却远在华裔之下。”
回复 | 0
作者:思羽 留言时间:2014-02-09 09:45:15
给寡人老兄拜个晚年,很高兴又在万维上见到你。
回复 | 0
作者:华山 留言时间:2014-02-09 09:14:02
寡人,你要删掉华山的贴子,倒是不错的办法,大概就可以免于跳脚了。华山不过让你论证一下 80 》94 这么个简单的数学命题,跳什么呢?说CPI被共党收买了,应该倒过来读,不就得了?

数学应该是抽象,指数是一系列数据成分的综合,比你那位黄先生一篇苍白无力的答辩说服力要强何止万千倍。数字面前就犯傻,绕不过去就耍赖了,行啊雄辩家们。

Li的文字是从事实到结论,黄的文字是从结论反事实,水平高下立马可见。为了反华,连阿三的马屁都拍上了,想来寡人的上司确实像印度人,否则没有这么深的体会。
回复 | 0
作者:俺是凡平 留言时间:2014-02-09 00:16:10
看了寡人兄对华山华政委的回复,精彩呀,呵呵呵。

"连Eric X. Li这样的高级五毛在被黄教授扒光裤子后也退到墙角,独自神伤,华山兄你这种低两档的却硬要癞蛤蟆垫台脚—硬撑,何苦?今年又不是猪年,你却故作死猪不怕开水烫状,何故? "

俺发现,俺以前叫华政委蠢猪还真是对不起猪这种动物,猪品比华政委的华品不知要好多少。

像华政委这种阿Q比Eric X. Li何止低两档,华阿Q就是一条鼻涕虫而已。俺发现在这条鼻涕虫上撒盐的网友越来越多,今天俺抽空也做点公益工作,撒点盐,给大伙做点清洁工工作,呵呵。
回复 | 0
作者:俺是凡平 留言时间:2014-02-08 23:59:29
看到芹泥也在这里,真开心。

给你拜个晚年,祝新年阖家幸福,一切顺利安康!
回复 | 0
作者:俺是凡平 留言时间:2014-02-08 23:57:20
再仔细读一遍寡人兄转贴的好文,以及寡人兄的评论,还是赞叹不已,谢谢分享!

祝好!
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-08 18:50:02
连Eric X. Li这样的高级五毛在被黄教授扒光裤子后也退到墙角,独自神伤,华山兄你这种低两档的却硬要癞蛤蟆垫台脚—硬撑,何苦?今年又不是猪年,你却故作死猪不怕开水烫状,何故?算了算了,看在现在是正月的份上,朕今天免你不死。

黄亚生的博文洋洋数千言,原来你华山能看懂的就只有这四句:“He (指Li))cites the Transparency International (TI) index tosupport his view. The TI data show that China is ranked better than many democracies. Fair enough. I have always thought that there is a touch of irony with using transparency data to defend a political system。”?华山兄你真是奇才啊!被文革耽误的人不少,其中数你最牛,所以先前对你不懂“hardcore, trick or treat” 还有点吃惊,现在我想通了。不过你还是别把大家想象得都跟你一样,我要是将老黄的文章翻译了给大家看,倒是对万维绝大多数读者的轻侮。你老人家尽可继续在晚上意淫中国比印度强10的N次方倍,早晨起来上班后再对着你的印度老板点头哈腰,低声下气。
回复 | 0
作者:华山 留言时间:2014-02-08 04:54:14
说老实话,连万维网管都不好意思将这种文字上导。就因为认得标题对味口,把一大堆英文弄上来,自己都懒得读通,翻译,不用说那帮叫好的了,根本就不可能读原文。我多少还读了几段,觉得这不过是一篇无奈的答辩词,针对的是Eric Li 的文章:

He (指Li))cites the Transparency International (TI) index to
support his view. The TI data show that China is ranked better than many democracies. Fair enough. I have always thought that there is a touch of irony with using transparency data to defend a political system。

看明白了吧。明显的是Li的“A tale of two political systems”要比这篇影响大得多。从TI, 到CPI 都表明印度的腐败和不透明度都大于中国,黄还声嘶力竭地驳什么?这个黄某名不见经传。倒是另一位预测中国崩溃的章家敦教授比它名声大得多。最近已经发不出声了。西方总有些这样的教授,不搞这样一点投靠西方主流意识到投名状,大概连课题经费都成问题。

梦客虽右,有个可爱之处,还能认错,譬如把CPI读反了。这位寡人最拿手的是“不管怎么说,中国都是最腐败的国家之一”中的“不管怎么说”,就是死猪式的不面对事实。为什么不肯承认“TI,CPI都说,印度都是比中国更腐败的国家之一”?

高叫中国腐败原因是“不民主”的主儿,在印度,埃及,墨西哥,菲律宾,印尼,甚至苏东坡等国家面前都发觉是绕不过去的坎,尤以印度为甚,因为中国和印度这两个国家的历史,人口,资源,独立时间非常相似,最具可比性。只要不是睜眼说瞎话的人都会看到,现今中国的经济,现代化程度,民众生活,早已将印度远远甩在后头(咱也懒得去引那些文字,许多还是印度人写的)。且印度经济后继乏力,除了外包软件和世界小姐外,实在没有可以拿出来的东西。印度移民西方的数量应是世界第一,回流极少,映证民教们“用脚投票”的社会制度优劣的论证方法。

当然,最切题的是:你寡人哪天能告诉读者,从世界2013年最新腐败排行榜上,80 大于 94,你这明矾就赢了,当然别忘了通知你那黄教授一声,去年七月的文章如同章教授的预测一样,已经赶不上世态发展,又得修订,这次该批CPI了。
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-07 15:58:55
芹泥的光临让我喜出望外,喜不自禁。新年好,芹泥,期待着你更多的超凡脱俗、流光溢彩的美文。
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-07 15:51:47
凡平兄跟我一样都是透明人,有什么说什么。TI(透明国际)要是有个人排名,你我还有嘎兄一定包揽前三名,透明度至少99%。哈哈。你所说的其实也是我所信奉的,但我想通向真理的道路可能不止一条,讲不定阿妞是在曲线救国呢?
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-07 15:39:41
前面将我的盟友老郭给忘漏了,非常抱歉。老郭一向可好?谢谢你介绍的海外五毛安瑪的故事。其实海外的中文甚至英文媒体,从来不缺五毛,万维也不例外。高级点的五毛后备往往文笔较好,特别能写,积累了一定的人气后就将其capitalize,在中共那里卖个好价钱。这些人常常自作聪明,将别人当傻瓜,太可笑了。
回复 | 0
作者:芹泥 留言时间:2014-02-07 15:22:09
问候寡人君,新年好!也问候楼上的朋友们!
回复 | 0
作者:俺是凡平 留言时间:2014-02-07 13:28:24
看到寡人兄你这么说,心里真是热乎乎的,俺也就不和你客气客套了,还是那句话,有朋在远方,来日方长。

看到六厄兄的评论,也说说俺的想法。我看人实际上很简单,对中国人来说,有两面最清楚的照妖镜,一面是毛泽东,一面是六四。在这两面镜子前,是人是妖那是一清二楚。人和妖分清楚了,那么俺对人的态度就是,碰到像寡人兄、嘎兄、冠云、医生这样志同道合、性子合拍的网友,我觉得非常的开心和幸运,而对其他和我想法不一样的的网友,我觉得可以就事论事,和而不同,抱着学习的态度看人家的有益的思想,尤其是阿妞、德孤兄、枫苑兄等也是这个网上我很尊重的,视他们为良师挚友的。

"阿妞的修养与策略值得我们仔细琢磨:一是尊重每一个个体,不管他是人杰还是人渣,君子还是伪君子(这是否也代表了自由的精髓?);二是统一战线,不管你是什么派,不打棍子,不扣帽子,但奉送人人一定高帽子,大家都满意而归。"

寡人兄说得很有道理,我之前基本上也是这么看的。但是我后来也理解了嘎兄的思想。在一个正常文明的社会里,阿妞的"尊重每一个个体,不管他是人杰还是人渣,君子还是伪君子"我是完全理解和同意的,这也是我理解的自由的精髓。那么问题是在于,什么事情都不能离开大前提和大环境背景。今天的中国社会和中国人群体,包括这个网上的海外华人世界,离一个现代文明的正常世界还有很大一段距离,现在急需的是倡导好的思想,倡导现代文明的普世价值,大家一起来积累共识,也算为中国的进步做点力所能及的事情吧。在这个背景下,搞统一战线、捣浆糊,把很多中国人本来就被中共洗糊涂的脑子越搅越混,那就不是真正的自由的精髓,而是把自由的精髓僵化、狭隘庸俗化了。

一点浅见,俺抛砖引玉,大伙多多批评,呵呵。

阿妞的境界比我高不少。
- See more at: http://blog.creaders.net/practitioner/user_blog_diary.php?did=173253#sthash.qD4kAcIW.dpuf
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-07 13:05:33
谢谢伊萍的来访,很高兴你喜欢这篇文章。对你在过去一年为推动中国的民主自由,增进海外华人的福祉所作出的努力,贡献的智慧,我表示由衷的钦佩和感激。
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-07 12:54:23
沐岚大侠是稀客,想请你上座,可家徒四壁,只好请你将就一下,席地而坐了。记得去年冰雨后,开车时对着那些已成了冰棍的树枝对我女儿说:Look at those cherry blossoms。我女儿一看,还真像。晚上回来便看到了你的相关博文,非常感谢。不过你那里才子佳人居多,不敢打搅。

你的“不要随便给人戴帽子”的提议很好,我在给阿妞的回复中已经提到了,这次泼水难收,下次争取做到。不用担心,我这里棍子没有,即使有,也不会用来对付女性,我自信这点君子风度还是有的。欢迎常来,新年快乐。
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-07 12:28:22
谢谢噶兄来访,新年好。得悉嘎兄的“三个自信”岿然屹立,我心中便释然了。

将海外华人在当地社会未能有更大作为解释为华人不抱团,有点自欺欺人。由此开出的“抱团”处方(置社会的公平正义与不顾)当然也就是无的放矢了。但许多华人在职场争斗中对自己同胞出手更狠的说法,倒也不是全无根据,体现了华人丑陋的一面。

中国人华人非常急功近利,面对许许多多的困境,无论是官方,还是民间或个人,开出的处方往往是治标不治本的,因为心中没有公平正义,长远利益这些大原则的指导。

印度企业家可以办自己的反贪举报网站,而中共却不允许类似网站在中国的存在,谁更腐败,是不是一目了然?我显然不是印度的拥趸,但对国人莫名其妙的民族优越感也常常备感困惑。
回复 | 0
作者:沐岚 留言时间:2014-02-07 12:11:30
哈哈, 以为我要挨棍子呢,还好,还好,谢谢各位手下留情。我和几位朋友里私下里有些往来,经常提到万维几位著名的博客已经不太写博了,觉得非常遗憾,比如寡人你,嘎子,伊萍,凡平,更不要说冠云,医生的离去,吾丁也不太写了。 没有你们的醍醐灌顶,实在是一大遗憾。
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-07 11:33:38
谢谢凡平兄鼎力支持。沐岚女侠的评论也完全代表了我的看法:“你最近的博文和评论使我们看到了大侠凡平之外的另一个凡平,有极高的理论水平和修养,非常佩服”。我当初就是被你的豪爽、正气、火眼金睛吸引,才在万维注册博客的。

阿妞的修养与策略值得我们仔细琢磨:一是尊重每一个个体,不管他是人杰还是人渣,君子还是伪君子(这是否也代表了自由的精髓?);二是统一战线,不管你是什么派,不打棍子,不扣帽子,但奉送人人一定高帽子,大家都满意而归。阿妞的境界比我高不少。
回复 | 0
作者:寡人 留言时间:2014-02-07 10:30:29
谢谢阿妞直言,原则上我完全认同。我的指名道姓显得不够策略。你看梦客为中共的腐败所作的辩解是多么巧妙:“据透明国际发布的腐败感知指数 (CPI),2013 年中国的得分是40,在全球177个国家中排名第80位,属于非常腐败的国家之一。虽然还不属于极度腐败的国家,但问题也相当严重。”,言外之意,中国的腐败居中游水平,还有许多腐败空间,社会公众的反应过度了。如果大家不了解透明国际的数据是如何来的,不知道黄亚生是如何驳斥这类辩词的,一定会中了梦客的招。

万维上有个很有趣的现象,不知阿妞注意到了没有:以梦客为代表的“温右”似乎有无穷无尽的时间写博客,而且常常上导读,个人以为,他们的观点误导了许多人,但象我及凡平、嘎啦哈这样的“纯右”(纯粹的右派)却很难找到大块时间另外发文去驳斥他们的似是而非的论调(我不认为在他们的博文后跟评反驳是一种明智的做法),所以有时贴标签就变得非常tempting,这也是没有办法的办法,希望阿妞理解、宽恕。在中共强大的引力和压力下,万维能否守得住裤腰带,也很成问题。
回复 | 0
作者:伊萍 留言时间:2014-02-07 10:28:03
谢谢转播。Great article!
回复 | 0
作者:厄厄厄厄厄厄 留言时间:2014-02-07 10:20:00
有空时上上网就像闲时逛街,看热闹而已。楼上几位都是万维大侠级的,你们写的文章也是厄爱看的。上网逛街的背景各异,看法有些许不同是很正常的。

厄认为,“乱给人扣帽子”这几个字是不能乱用的。你怎么知道是乱扣帽子?逛街时看到一个爱党小偷,说它是小偷这就不是乱扣帽子。逛街时看到一个爱党混混,说它是混混这就不是乱扣帽子。情况略微复杂点的,比如听见一只爱党苍蝇在叫,厄说,有一只苍蝇。有的网友也许会说,不能乱扣帽子,要逮住这爱党苍蝇,再放到显微镜下研究有几条腿几只脑袋,然后才能下结论。哈哈,不能说你错,你够耐心的,但判断力差点。

梁山招安派只反贪官不反皇帝,万维招安派连贪官皇帝都不愿反。温影帝家族大捞特捞被揭时万维招安派那个跳脚,再看看最近这帮人对习包子吹捧的那个肉麻,有些网友该醒醒啦。
回复 | 0
我的名片
寡人
注册日期: 2013-03-28
访问总量: 412,522 次
点击查看我的个人资料
Calendar
我的公告栏
转载请注明出处
欢迎光临!
最新发布
· 穆勒报告揭示美国面临的真正威胁
· 我对几个中国成语的一点疑问
· 穆勒报告公布,句号还是逗号
· 简议能否起诉在任总统及穆勒报告
· 加拿大服役时间最长的军官、二战
· 右翼恐怖主义不容否认
· “川金会”谈崩暴露了一对一外交的
分类目录
【汉语】
· 我对几个中国成语的一点疑问
【川普】
· 穆勒报告揭示美国面临的真正威胁
· 穆勒报告公布,句号还是逗号
· 简议能否起诉在任总统及穆勒报告
· 川普上任两年支持率在各州全面下
· 与阿妞讨论川普的对外政策
· 罗杰斯通被捕通俄门调查决战到来
· 今夜:白宫里小鬼当家
· 新闻漫画中的川普
· 川普应对盟友的离心倾向负责
【加拿大人】
· 加拿大服役时间最长的军官、二战
【辟谣】
· 右翼恐怖主义不容否认
· 老钱:请勿以讹传讹!
· 千禧年夫妇骑车穿越伊斯兰国被杀
· 宋永毅是加州大学的教授吗?
【中国观察】
· 任正非“一不小心”泄露天机
【时事纵横】
· 美国媒体的政治倾向及报道质量
· 纽时惊爆:FBI曾对川普展开反情
· 川粉必读:左媒华邮也挺川
【台湾话题】
· 台湾的国家地位(statehood)—de f
【北美看台】
· “川金会”谈崩暴露了一对一外交的
· 遍布加拿大校园的“熊猫”爪
· 路透:新文件透露孟晚舟案新线索(
· 2018: 加拿大流年不利
· 为了美国的长治久安,请投民主党
· 潘斯向中共扔了一枚超级震撼弹
· 我是特朗普政府中的一名抵抗者
· 某国留美学生几乎都是间谍—fake
· 川普在赫尔辛基的表现令人鄙视(R
【数学】
· 趣味数学—一名初中生提出的数学
【耻辱柱】
· BREAKING NEWS:杰克(aka BFTS)被
· 请看流氓BFTS是如何向正派人泼粪
· 多行不义必自毙—BFTS被处罚
· 流氓“youguli”为何能在万维横行
· 万维臭鞋大赛发榜了!(周末一笑
【英语学习】
· 英文杂谈(2):新春将至话年龄
· 英文杂谈(1):importantly vs.
· 莎士比亚说过这句话吗?
· 奥巴马即将召见SB博
【科学】
· The Edge Of Space - BBC Docume
【婚姻家庭】
· 加州工程师杀岳父母 VS. BC省工
【宗教文化】
· 教皇Benedict为何辞职:令人震惊
· 文化与制度杂谈
· ISIS的前世今生
· 什么样的科学家在反对进化论?
· 转贴:现代中国知识分子的家国情
· 读后感:“易中天:中国需要与统治
【时政】
· 中国通John Pomfret谈中美对台政
· 山东秀才念半边—有感于林建华念
· 普丁受到重击—痛不欲生!
· 习近平的狂妄超乎你想象
· 从shithole countries到peopleki
· 中国的软实力和锐实力
· 真的假文件 or 假的真文件?
· 联邦自由党人的道德操守堪忧
· 袁红冰谈哈德逊事件和郭文贵保卫
· 为什么加拿大人需要开始提防中国
存档目录
2019-04-04 - 2019-04-24
2019-03-04 - 2019-03-18
2019-02-03 - 2019-02-27
2019-01-08 - 2019-01-26
2018-12-14 - 2018-12-23
2018-11-02 - 2018-11-02
2018-10-09 - 2018-10-22
2018-09-06 - 2018-09-23
2018-08-11 - 2018-08-11
2018-07-21 - 2018-07-21
2018-06-22 - 2018-06-24
2018-05-07 - 2018-05-18
2018-03-30 - 2018-03-30
2018-02-05 - 2018-02-28
2018-01-03 - 2018-01-23
2017-12-15 - 2017-12-15
2017-11-25 - 2017-11-25
2017-10-23 - 2017-10-23
2017-07-15 - 2017-07-15
2017-06-02 - 2017-06-02
2017-05-05 - 2017-05-18
2017-04-19 - 2017-04-19
2017-02-08 - 2017-02-27
2017-01-13 - 2017-01-13
2016-12-15 - 2016-12-15
2016-11-24 - 2016-11-24
2016-10-22 - 2016-10-22
2016-06-01 - 2016-06-14
2016-05-12 - 2016-05-12
2016-04-09 - 2016-04-25
2016-02-17 - 2016-02-17
2016-01-26 - 2016-01-27
2015-11-25 - 2015-11-30
2015-10-21 - 2015-10-21
2015-09-11 - 2015-09-29
2015-06-12 - 2015-06-29
2015-03-24 - 2015-03-24
2015-01-19 - 2015-01-27
2014-11-01 - 2014-11-01
2014-10-03 - 2014-10-03
2014-09-10 - 2014-09-10
2014-02-06 - 2014-02-06
2013-10-03 - 2013-10-03
2013-06-11 - 2013-06-11
2013-05-03 - 2013-05-22
2013-04-12 - 2013-04-12
2013-03-28 - 2013-03-28
 
关于本站 | 广告服务 | 联系我们 | 招聘信息 | 网站导航 | 隐私保护
Copyright (C) 1998-2024. Creaders.NET. All Rights Reserved.