(伊萍: 中国文科教育的缺失),对文科教育意义的探讨(枫苑梦客:人文科学究竟有没有用),和好学校 vs 差学校, 好学区vs 差学区这些对中国家长来说“永恒”的话题。正好前天老朋友给我发来一篇耶鲁大学英文教授Dr. William Deresiewicz 写的关于“精英教育”的误区的文章,看了以后很有感触(有些观点可能让人感觉很偏激, 但仍不失为一个很好的批判和反思)。这里就将吴万伟的中文译文转贴(网友浪宽提供),权作加入讨论吧。篇幅很长,抱歉
twocentsworth: I'm not a "master of moderation", only trying to be:). Of course I know Dr. D is over generalizing based on his experiences and views, and there are many exceptions. But it seems that even you agree the system can be "污泥", and only the ones who can separate themselves from the environment are the "heros"?
昭君, “精英对社会大众的“鄙视”和脱离,以及他们的entitlement mentality”?Aren't we tarring everybody with the same brush here? I personally know of many exceptions. 昭君,as a master in the art of moderation, this is a big generalization (exactly what Prof. Deresiewicz is doing in his piece). Smacks of class warfare to me. 能出于污泥而不染者,皆英雄也!
coolboy: Looks like you are also an educator - hand shake hand shake:). Sorry I skipped your comment earlier - I was caught in the exchanges regarding the copyright ownership of the translation between twocentsworth and Lang Kuan:).
I think many Chinese do not understand or respect the "universalism" of the social rules in the west, and hence try to "play the system" at times. Sometimes they do succeed, which gives them even more reasons to "use their smart" this way. I personally do not agree with such behavior, and think respecting and following the social rules and norms is indeed a sign of the maturity of a society.
twocentsworth: Thanks. That kind of reinforced my impression.
By the way, I'd like to discuss something with you in private setting. Since you don't have a blog here, there's no way I can leave a private message for you. I do have an email address that I use for correspondence offline with my online friends. If you don't mind, could you drop me a line there? Of course, if you just want to keep our conversations in the blog space, I totally understand.
昭君, Of the two views about life in Canada which you described I tend towards the second one as being more typical. Personally (I think most Canadians would agree with me) I think the quality of life in Canada in somewhat better than in the U.S., if money and material enjoyment are not too heavily weighted in the equation. Life is more gentile in Canada. The academia is less “cut throat”. “Free” health care and education (pre-university) factor in a lot of the considerations. Taxes are higher but not by much, certainly not when viewed against the services rendered.
On the other hand (and this a personal view – and I know it will get me in trouble with many compatriots) Canadians tend to be a smug and self-satisfied lot. I just don’t think there is the same drive and competitive spirit as in the U.S. and China. Many hard-driving Chinese immigrants find life in Canada boring. I think my characterization fits in with the view expressed by your second friend.
I am not sure what your first friend means by “bureaucratic system”, but my sense is that bureaucracy certainly exists (it does in the U.S. too), but the system generally does work, and government services are acceptably efficient (even courteous). In all my life here I honestly have not found it wanting – and I am NOT a smug person. Again I think language proficiency (or the lack of it) determines one’s ability to deal with these issues.
COOLBOY: You’re absolutely right! We Canadians are living off our natural resources. We need to plan more for the future. As for people trying to 钻漏洞,right again! It’s deplorable that many immigrants have learnt to take (often unfair) advantage of Canada’s generosity very quickly after arriving.
The quasi-socialism system like Canada and Norway has very high taxes and high benefits with few loopholes. Such a system cannot last for a very long time unless it is for a country with small population and/or large natural resources. There are always many loopholes (in tax system or others) in a country with lots of freedom, which makes the smart, hard working, or active people living far above the average. I twice received calls from total (Chinese) strangers who came from Canada to USA for job interviews who found my name from university phone book and asked me how the (financial or living) system worked here. Well, they were all convinced (at least on the phone) that in Canada you got what you saw or were told whereas in USA you can get (legally) far more than what you were told have.
Without revealing too much details, I can tell you that she was basically following her husband's career to Canada. He is a very successful academian, both in the states and in Canada, but I guess he was attracted by the very generous offer made by the school in Canada and the freedom he was guaranteed there. What she meant by Canada's socialism system was mostly in the bureaucratic system - the government and services it provides. So her case is probably not a very "typical" Chinese immigrants in that country. I have another friend who lived in Canada for many years (got her Ph.D. from an "elite" Canadian school), and then got a job at a university in the states. Her husband and son still live in Canada and she commutes to the other side of the border a few days a week to go to work. I asked why they didn't just move to the states, considering that her husband was a free agent and could work from anywhere. She told me it was because her husband liked the "slower pace and social security provided by the Canadian system" - so there, you have two different views from two Chinese immigrants who have similar backgrounds and professional experiences. But I think the second one is probably more typical. Am I right?
昭君, Just to pick up on the earlier thread, it would be interesting to know what your friend meant by Canadian "socialism" and which aspects of Canada's "socialism" she found disagreeable. Ironically many immigrants beat a path to Canada's door precisely because of the generous social benefits Canada has to offer. It is one of the few countries in the world which provide "cradle to grave" social services. (This is a factual statement, not an endorsement or objection on my part.) The only other country I can think of in the same category is Norway, but it is extremely difficult to immigrate to Norway. It would also be interested to know why your friend chose to come to Canada, and whether that initial presumption was ultimately fulfilled (although from the way it sounds, I suspect not).
twocentsworth: I think Lang Kuan was just trying to help. Not everyone pays attention to the sources of articles published on the web these days, but of course, it's always helpful to include the sources, if only for the purpose of giving credit to whoever did the original work.
With respect, Mr. Lang Kuan I think you should have disclosed the author and the source of this Chinese translation right at the start (since you clearly had that information). This forum can only work if everyone operates on the principle of fairness and honesty.
I am pleased that Mr. Lang Kuan has decided to render his great service and translated the Deresiewicz article into Chinese. If I could have expressed myself as eloquently as Mr. Lang Kuan did I certainly would have used Chinese to respond in this forum. At the same time, however, I am thankful that 昭君 has decided to give those of us with somewhat less proficiency in the language of the Middle Kingdom a chance to be heard. That is exactly what “education”, “democracy” and “civilization” are about. I do wish I might one day have the same command of the Chinese language as Mr. Lang Kuan, and be able to 引经据典. Who knows, maybe someday I will.
The major difference between a science issue and a social issue is that one or I cannot take a side in a debate on a social issue. Both 昭君 and twocentsworth are nice and their points are reasonable too (and I am sure they are both very beautiful as well) if one reads it separately. I will continue to keep quiet and watch ...... :)
Beaubien2010: Forgive me, I re-read your original comment and twocentsworth’s comments, as well as my responses, but still can’t figure out how I appeared “arrogant”, and how my comments could have hurt you. Please help me. I apologize for not including the origin of this article in the post, but the author’s name and affiliation were included in the bottom of the article in the first post (perhaps I should have hightlighted to avoid confusion). I also pointed out it’s an article “shared by my friend”, not written by her, so I don’t know where the confusion could have originated from? Plus, I have said several times, that the fact I posted this article here does not mean I agree or endorse the author’s opinions on “elite education”, but just think his ideas might stir some meaningful discussions (as it has done two years ago among many “elite” people and the like, as twocentsworth pointed out). That’s my only intention. And from what happened here, I guess at least that’s partially achieved.
One more thing: I never consider myself as an elite (as a matter of fact, I’m not a “product” of the elite system), and that’s why I said if I wrote something like this as twocentsworth suggested, it would be seen as someone who are “sour grapes”. It’s only meant to be a joke.
Twocentsworth: Thanks for the “heavy lifting”. I expected this article will cause some controversy, but by no means expected the target to be me – it probably is another example of how language sometimes can be unclear, which leads to misunderstanding and mis-communication. I hope you can enlighten me and let me know what I’m missing here. Anyway, your explanation of the Canadian educational system is very helpful. I know for a fact that Canada’s system, like its entire social institutions, are very much “equalized”, which is what many Americans don’t like about it. The friend who recommended this article to me actually lived in the states for many years before moving to Canada, and she hated the “Socialism” system there for the first few years at least. I know there’s merit of each system, and as usual, I would love to see some kind of “happy middle ground” between them. But even in the Canadian system, there is still some fashion of “stratification”, even though all the universities are supposed to be at the same level, as you have so clearly pointed out. So it’s an unavoidable human nature to stratify the society into “classes”, or “mainstream” versus “side streams” as has been discussed and debated here at other times. So maybe there’s no need to reflect on the “disadvantages” of “elite education”, because it is a way of life and it is what everyone wants to be part of. Maybe it’s just like what Jack Welch wanted for GE: Every unit has to be the top 1 or 2 in its industry, or it will be sold or divested. Granted, there is only one No. 1 and one No. 2 in each industry, but it is at least worth the try. And if every business is striving to become the No. 1, then we can expect that the average performance will indeed go up. The question becomes then, is being part of the “elite” an end in itself, as suggested by Dr. D?
My turn to do some heavy lifting. It’s only fair, I suppose.
As in the U.S. the subject of education in Canada is very complex and highly contentious. Education is a provincial (vs. federal) responsibility (as is health care). It also happens to be the second largest government expenditure (after health care). Because it is under provincial jurisdiction it varies from province to province, and I would invite Beaubien to add her comments for Quebec (and elsewhere that she cares to share her views about.)
Canada’s long British tradition and current law do not permit the establishment of private universities. However at the pre-university levels there are many private and pseudo-private schools and high schools. (Of course we also have our share of the so-called “visa schools” and “diploma mills” which are privately operated and run mainly for profit and cater to students from overseas, but that is another subject.)
Not unlike the U.S., many parents have become disenchanted with publicly funded schools. They deplore the “politicization” of the school system, and its lack of “solid” academic results (by “academic” I mean schools where teachers ACTUALLY teach something instead of trying to impress parents with empty new fashionable educational slogans and nice-sounding concepts like “child-centered” learning which in this case only serves to relief teachers of the need to teach. “Child-centered learning” can mean many things, and in a good school with excellent teachers it can actually do a lot of good.). This has given rise to a very healthy private school system which covers the whole spectrum: religious, bilingual (English/French) academic, Montessori, etc.
Even though the universities are publicly funded, a hierarchy exists among them. U. of Toronto, McGill in Montreal, Dalhousie in Halifax are examples of the tier one universities. The ranking obviously depends on the discipline. For example in law it’s U. of Toronto and Osgoode Hall of York U. among others. Naturally these top universities get to pick and choose who they admit. There is no entrance exam, but the SAT, LSAT and GPA scores are often used as one of the admission criteria, especially in the professional disciplines. To help students get into these schools grade inflation by high schools is a common problem.
One other point: Canada is bilingual English and French. Although a large segment of the population can live and work profitably and have rewarding careers in only one language, bilingual competency is an asset (and often a requirement) in public positions as well as senior government and private enterprises.
Canadian society used to be very stratified. We had our equivalent of Kennedy’s and Rockefellers. But in the past 10 or so years the vast influx of skilled and ambitious immigrants has changed the social fabric. These immigrants are beginning to make their mark in Canadian society. Today’s Canada is racially and cultural rich and diverse. Racial equality and multiculturalism are enshrined in law. But as I have previously pointed out, whether or not one intends to assimilate in Canadian society, native language proficiency is key to a successful and rewarding future in Canada, as in any country.
After reading the first review of twocentsworth, I were having a strong feeling of displeasure that 昭君 did not point out clearly the original source of the article, I just felt like a fool. Thank you, twocentsworth, because of you, I truly understand what a real "elite" person is, not only just from school, but also from the roots, like 欧阳兄said: Well-educated family could improve those "disadvantages of an Elite education".
About the Canadian education system, I don't have the qualification to brag about it. However, we do have some "Elite" schools, although they are not as famous as Harvard or Yale.
p.s. I respect you as my mentor, reading your article, I see how a woman can have such wisdom, but this time, your "arrogance"(sorry for using this word) made me hurt.
An "Elite Person" is not what they do, it is who they are.
Thanks, twocentsworth for the "moment of truth". Yours is indeed an "elite" family, hehe.
You know, come to think of what you said about how Dr. D was blaming his own education for his "problems" or "difficulties" later in life, I just realized that he is exactly the example of the very phenomenon he is complaining about -- that he's somehow entitled to whatever this education system has to offer, and if he did not turn out to be what he thinks he should, then it must be the system's fault! Isn't this the ultimate "entitlement" in action?!!
I meant to ask you and Beaubien, because I know both of you are in Canada: Is the Canadian education system different? I know you don't really have the so-called "elite" schools because most of the universities are supposed to be public schools, although there are many private schools for K-12. As a matter of fact, the friend who recommended this article to me, has both her daughters at "elite" private schools now, and her younger daughter, actually decided to share this article with her debate team. It would be interesting to see what they think of it.
Thanks for sharing the original link, too. I should have included it in the first place.
哈哈昭君, this is the “moment of truth”. (I was hoping to keep the suspense a little longer…)
No I do not teach at a university, though I myself have been a teacher. However mine is an extended family of educators and intellectuals: two law professors, one professor of medicine, five Ph.Ds (soon to be six), two LL.Ms (Harvard). Etc.
Please do forgive me. It WAS NOT my intention to brag. But, as you can see, I feel very passionately about education and freedom of intellectual pursuit.
Twocentsworth: Sorry for taking you away from your vacation time to “waste” on this “twice-cooked fried rice”! But I kind of expected your reaction, and guessed that you would be familiar with this controversial piece. Like I pointed out earlier, I do not endorse his views, which are, just like you pointed out, full of over-generalization based on some biased observations and individual cases. But by all means, I think he still raised some important questions regarding the very meaning of education and humanistic education (which was exactly why I decided to post it here now), or maybe, just like you mentioned, questions regarding the very education system we have now (not just elite education).
I was also surprised when I read the section about “grade inflation” at the elite schools. His portrayal of these schools as “tough in, easy out” systems that do not fail students once they get in, is against my pre-existing assumptions of their rigor and strict demand for students. I don’t know which one is right?
I wanted to ask you for a while, but haven’t found the right moment, plus I didn’t want to be intrusive, but now I do feel compelled to ask: Do you teach at universities? Perhaps in the humanity field like English? Please understand my curiosity, and if you don’t feel like answering, please disregard the question:).
枫苑: 谢谢评论。上面回复欧阳的时候忘了提到,我觉得文章观点中最有启发性的一点,并不是指出精英教育的“产物”脱离社会和anti-intellectual, 而是他们对于和他们不同的,非精英教育产物的人们( i.e., the general public ) 的“look down”(也就是你所说的“人文关怀”)和对自己享有的一切的entitlement 。如果追求精英教育的目的,只是为了进入这个“圈子”,而且如果真如作者所说,进入圈子的前提条件只是会读书或者会考试(这点肯定是偏激片面的,但不可否认的是,这些学校所看重的类型还是比较单一的),那么这种制度是否可能会如作者所批驳的那样,成为 精英阶层 self serving 的工具呢(当然如我上面指出,在精英平民化的过程中,可能会有更多的非精英出身的孩子加入成为“点缀”,比如奥总,呵呵)。
I had neglected to point out that William Deresiewicz's article first appeared in the Summer 2008 issue of "The American Scholar". It generated a huge amount of heated debate then.